normal Still more changes

14 Aug 2014 20:02 - 14 Aug 2014 20:59 #1 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
Still more changes was created by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
The following are changes that we are currently working on, and are open to thoughtful discussion in terms of balance and other errors that may exist. These changes will NOT go into effect until next event, and might be revised slightly if we see that we have something way off balance. Of course, when you work on balancing things out, you sometimes notice other things that are out of balance, so this will go a little beyond prayers as well. We are posting these proposed changes for two reasons:

1) We wanted those who might go Visagalis to be able to make appropriate decisions based on what was going to be the new domains, and allow any other player this affects to be able to make any changes they deem fit.
2) We wanted to make sure that we did balance things. I don't mind if one is a better combat, and another is a better utility, and another is cool for RP reasons, but they all should be playable, and if not equally attractive to a given player, have a good distribution of people who would want that domain.

With your input, we can see if we went too much in one area or another, and tweak them before final revision.

To understand why we are doing these changes, we have two goals, one major, one minor.
1) We wanted to balance out the domains a bit more so that all domains are viable PvE domains, and no one domain is a 'no-brainer' domain. Some domains, particularly the darker ones, would have one incredible prayer, and some not very useful ones, others had some prayers are great for an NPC to have and not so much for a PC. We hope to keep these prayers for NPCs to use, while toning down, or replacing the ones the PCs have.
2) We have a general trend to get rid of summoning, you have noticed it with Magic and Druidics, and now that moves to prayers.

Changes to descriptions of gods

Remove from the description of Glomm the following sentence:
“Glommites revel in the creation of undead, which are the ultimate perversion of their living forms. Undead also trap souls in the material world, which denies them to Glomm’s enemy, Galladel.”

Fauna

Rank 4

Maul has been updated as follows;

“Maul

6 DP; Traits: Druidic (Fauna), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Dazed)
This spell breaks one of the target’s limbs and renders her dazed for 30 seconds. The caster decides which limb is affected.”

Enchantment

Rank 1

The text of Deep Pockets has been updated as follows:
“This prayer defends against a use of the skill Pick Pocket. The pickpocket is told that nothing is found in the container.”

Necromancy

Rank 1

Feign Life has been renamed Necromantic Shroud and updated as follows:

1 MP; Traits: Arcane (Necromancy), Caster
This spell allows the recipient to foil all spells or abilities that detect life or death for a duration of five minutes. This spell does not change the recipient’s appearance in any way.

Rank 3

Necromantic Terror has been updated as follows:
“This spell causes an opponent to become frozen with fear. The opponent cannot move or take action of any kind for a duration of one minute. This is a mental effect, not a fear effect.

Rank 4

Harvest Your Soul has been updated as follows;

“Harvest Your Soul

6 MP; Traits: Arcane (Necromancy), Attack, Ranged
This spell inflicts catastrophic harm to an opponent, dealing 200 points of Magic Body damage. If used on an undead it will heal it for 200 body points.”


Sacrament

Rank 1

Consecrate has been removed and changed into a continuous skill.

Rank 2

Aid has been moved to Rank 3 at the cost of 4 FP and changed to read as follows:

"Aid

3 FP; Traits: Divine (Sacrament), Latent
This prayer imbues a target with 15 temporary body points and to strike for divine damage for a duration of 5 minutes."

Rank 3

Divine Vestments (prayer) has been removed from the game.

Divine Sanctuary has been moved to Rank 4 at the new cost of 6 FP.

Banishment has been moved to Rank 4 at the new cost of 5 FP.

Rank 4
Divine Sphere of Protection has been removed from the game.

Divine Negation has been moved to Rank 3 at the new cost of 4 FP.


Authority

Rank 1

Grovel has been changed to read as follows:

Grovel
1 FP; Traits: Divine (Authority), Attack, Ranged, Knock Down
This prayer forces a target to the ground and must remain so for 5 seconds.

Quell has had the Mental trait added.

Rank 2

Commanding Mind has had the Mental trait added.

Cower has had the Mental trait added.

Rank 3

Conscript has had the Mental trait added.

Capture has had the Condition (Held) trait added.

Rank 4

Majesty has had the Mental trait added.

Control has had the Mental trait added.

Chaos

Rank 1

Negate Law has been changed to Chaotic Thoughts:

Traits: Divine (Chaos), Defense, Latent, Social
“This ability will resist a social skill.”

Disordered Mind has moved to 4th rank and has been changed to read as follows;

Disordered Mind

5 FP; Traits: Divine (Chaos), Caster, Latent
This prayer renders the caster able to remain silent when questioned about one specific topic for the duration of the current period when used. The caster cannot lie and escape detection, but is merely able to resist any compulsion to speak the truth and can choose to remain silent.

Entropic Burst has been added as a new Rank 1 Chaos Domain prayer;

"Entropic Burst

1 FP; Traits: Divine (Chaos), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Dazed)
The target is dazed for 5 seconds.

Rank 2

Shield of Chaos has been updated to do the following”
“This prayer will resist any ability, skill or item that would bind, pin or hold the character.”

Chaotic Feast has had the Mental trait and the Rage trait added.

Rank 3

Hatred has been removed from the game.

Rank 4

Chaotic Mind has been moved to Rank 3 and updated to read as follows;

"Chaotic Mind
4 FP; Traits: Divine (Chaos), Latent, Caster, Defense, Attack, Mental, Condition (Stun)
This prayer resists a mental attack or mind-influencing ability. In addition, the opponent that delivered the attack suffers a 5 second stun. This is a mental effect.

Winds of Confusion has been changed to Incite Rage (Or a better name)

“Incite Rage
5 FP Traits: Divine (Chaos), Attack, Ranged, Mental, Rage
This prayer will force a target into a wild rage, causing them to attack all nearby allies for 10 minutes.”

Compassion

Rank 1

Calm has had the Mental trait added.

Rank 2

Forgiveness has had the Mental trait added

Mercy has had the Mental trait added.

Rank 3

Friendship has had the Mental trait added.

Rank 4

Calm Discourse has had the Mental trait added.


Corruption

Rank 1

Create Lesser Undead has been removed from the Corruption Domain and replaced with

Temptation
1 FP, Traits: Attack, Ranged, Divine (Corruption), Mental

The priests suggests that the target go engage in some other activity that the target enjoys, this activity must be viably available and any cost supplied by the priest. As long as the target does not believe that their life is in danger or attacked in any fashion, they will give into the temptation and will participate in that activity for at least one minute. If this prayer is successful, the target doesn't realize they've been targeted.

Corrupted Thoughts has had the Mental trait added.

Rank 2
Corrupt Weapon has been changed to Corrupt Strike as follows;

"Corrupt Strike
2 FP; Traits: Divine (Corruption), Latent, Attack,
This prayer imbues a recipient with the ability to weaken a target through melee strike, causing the target to deal two less damage with melee weapons for a duration of 5 minutes. The opponent can defend against this attack using any ability that would protect against a weapon strike or a prayer."

Rank 3
Rot limb has been moved to Rank 4 at a cost of 6 FP. Rot Limb has had the Area Specific trait removed.

Rank 3
Corrupt Health, 3 FP, Attack, Ranged, Divine (Corruption)
This prayer inflicts 25 Divine Damage to the target.


Rank 4

Create Greater Undead has been removed from the Corruption Domain.

Corrupt Obscuration has been updated as follows;

"Corrupt Obscuration

6 FP; Traits: Divine(Corruption), Attack, Ranged
This prayer renders the target unable to use any prayers or abilities with the Divine trait for a duration of five minutes. The target may not cast or invoke latent casting of these abilities, or invoke these abilities from items or psalms."

Creation

Efficiency
6 FP; Traits: Divine (Creation), Augment
This prayer allows the recipient to craft an alchemy item with one less component than is normally needed, or a smithing item with one less units of the required material than is normally needed. The recipient must have at least one component or unit of the required material to utilize this prayer. A smithing item crafted with the use of this prayer yields no units of material at all if melted down; the item card must be noted accordingly.




Darkness

Rank 1

Extinguish has been renamed Bring Shadows. Bring Shadows has had the Area of Effect trait and Ranged trait added.

Night Eyes has been moved to Rank 3 at a cost of 4 FP.

Void Strike has been added as a new Rank 1 Darkness Domain prayer;

"Void Strike

1 FP; Traits: Divine (Darkness), Attack, Ranged
Target takes 8 points of Divine damage.

Rank 2

The prayer Fear has been renamed Cause Fear.

Rank 3

Grant Blind fighting has been removed.

Rank 4

Curse of the Doomed has been updated as follows;

Curse of The Doomed
5 FP; Traits: Divine (Darkness), Attack, Ranged, Curse
The prayer causes the target to take double damage from all attacks that deal Divine damage. This prayer can be cured as a lesser curse.

Death

Rank 1

Rot Living Flesh has been renamed Rot and has been updated as follows;

"Rot

1 FP; Traits: Divine (Death), Attack, Ranged
This prayer inflicts 6 points of Direct Body damage.

Rank 2

Face of Death, a new Rank 2 prayer has been added to the Death Domain as follows;

“Face of Death

2 FP; Traits: Divine (Death), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Dazed)
Target is struck with a vision of their own death, leaving her dazed for 1 minute.”

Death's Empowerment has been removed from the game.

Rank 3

Cause Disease has been removed from the game.


Life Drain has been renamed Steal Vitality and updated as follows;

"Steal Vitality

3FP; Traits: Divine (Death), Attack, Ranged, Augment
This prayer inflicts 25 points of direct body damage to an opponent, and bestows those points on the caster for a duration of thirty minutes, or until used, whichever comes first. This spell has no effect on undead. "

Rank 4

Whisper through the Black Gate has been moved to Rank 3 at a cost of 4 FP and has been updated as follows:

Whispers Through The Black Gate
4 FP; Traits: Divine (Death), Latent, Caster
This prayer allows the caster to ask one question of a corpse that they administer a killing blow to at the time of the killing blow. Only a “yes” or “no” answer can be elicited by the question. The answer must be based on the living experience of the person whose death occurred, up to and including the moment of the death of that body, but nothing beyond. The person whose death it is must answer the question truthfully, regardless of whether that person has since resurrected, or passed on through the Great Nexus.

Grant Death has been updated as follows;

“Grant Death

6 FP, Traits: Divine (Death), Attack, Ranged
This prayer inflicts catastrophic harm to an opponent dealing 200 points of Divine Body damage.”

Reaper’s Gaze has been added as a new Rank 4 Death Domain prayer;

"Reaper’s Gaze
5 FP; Traits: Divine (Death), Attack, Spray, Fear
This spell creates a spray that cover a ninety-degree arc and extend five feet from the caster's hand. The spray intimidates all targets in the area and they cannot take any offensive action against the character for five minutes. If the character attacks the opponent, she can try to defend herself from the character’s strikes but cannot attempt to counterattack.

Destruction

Rank 1

Rend Armor has been updated to do 15 points of damage to the target’s armor.

Rank 2

Brutalize has had the second instance of the trait Divine (Destruction) removed. It is not twice as divine as any other prayer.

Rank 3

Phantom Attack has been increased in cost to 4 FP

Rank 4
Pulverize has had the Area Specific trait removed and updated as follows;

“Pulverize

6 FP; Traits: Divine (Destruction), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Dazed)
This prayers breaks one of the target’s limbs and renders her dazed for 30 seconds. The caster decides which limb is affected.”

Piercing Strike has been removed from the game.

Obliterate has been added as a new Rank 4 Destruction Domain prayer;

“Obliterate

5 FP; Traits: Divine (Destruction), Attack, Ranged, Knock Back
Target is pummeled with divine force taking 75 points of Divine damage and knocks the target back 10 feet.”


Fate

Rank 1

The text of Secret Pocket has been updated as follows:
“This prayer defends against a use of the skill Pick Pocket. The pickpocket is told that nothing is found in the container.”

Flare has had the Condition (Dazed) trait added.

Rank 3
Remove Curse has been renamed Negate Curse.

Knowledge

Rank 2

Comprehend Languages has had the Caster trait added.

Detect Truth has had the Mental trait added.

Law

Rank 1

Chains of Justice has had the Condition (Pinned) trait added.

Halt has had the Line of Sight trait added.

Rank 3

Legal Thought has had the following line of text added;

"This prayer must be marked on the character's card in the notes section."

Confession has had the Mental trait added.

Life

Rank 1
Gaia's Breath has been renamed "Breath of Life"

Rank 3

Anoint has been updated to read as follows;

"Anoint
4 FP; Traits: Divine(Life), Latent, Defense
This prayer resists any casted effect that would drop the recipient to the Serious or Critical condition "

Rank 4

Gaia's Embrace has been renamed "Gift of Life

Light

Rank 2

Illumination has had the Area of Effect trait added.

Rank 4

Luminescent Beam has had the Condition (Blinded) trait added.

Spirit

Rank 2

Restore Control has had the Attack trait, Mental trait, and Ranged trait added.

Rank 4

Spirit Stasis has had the Caster trait removed.

Galladel's Release has been renamed "Spirit's Release" and has been updated as follows:

Spirit’s Release
6FP, Traits: Divine (Spirit), Attack, Ranged
This prayer inflicts catastrophic harm to an undead being, dealing 200 Divine Bane damage.

Torment

Rank 1

Hobble has had been updated as follows;

"Hobble

1 FP; Traits: Divine (Torment), Attack, Ranged, Pain, Condition (Hobbled)
This prayer causes a target to only move at a heel-to-toe pace for one minute. "

Rank 2

Cause Pain has had the Condition (Knocked Prone) trait added.

Rank 3
Shield of Suffering has been updated as follows:

"Shield of Suffering

3 FP; Traits: Divine (Torment), Caster, Defense, Latent, Attack, Condition (Dazed), Pain
This prayer inflicts an attacker with a wave of pain, dazing her for one minute. The caster must still succumb to or defend against the attack.

Rank 4

Bestow Curse will be renamed Tormenting Snare
4 FP; Traits: Divine (Torment), Attack, Ranged
This prayer instantly binds and gags an opponent with spiked chains. The opponent is bound by the hands and feet and gagged, rendered completely immobile and unable to speak. The bindings are not very secure, and can be cut loose with an edged weapon, broken loose by the opponent if she has Strength +4 or greater, or slipped out of by the opponent if she has the skill Escape. If the target does get loose of their bindings before the prayer expires, the target takes an additional 15 direct body damage. The bindings will disintegrate completely after five minutes.


Pain Paralysis has been updated as follows:

"Pain Paralysis

5 FP: Traits: Divine (Torment), Attack, Ranged, Pain, Condition (Paralyzed)
This prayer causes an opponent to be paralyzed in pain for one minute. When the duration expires, or the paralysis is cured, the target suffers 25 points of Direct Body damage."

Desperate Isolation has been updated as follows:

"Desperate Isolation

6 FP; Traits: Divine (Torment), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Blinded), Condition (Deaf), Condition (Hobbled)

This prayer renders a target Blind, Deaf and Hobbled for a duration of 5 minutes. "

War

Rank 4

Blade of Victory has been updated as follows;

"Blade of Victory

6FP; Traits: Divine (War), Augment, Attack, Latent
This prayer imbues a target with the ability to deliver a melee strike for 100 points of Divine Body damage. The opponent can defend against this attack using any ability that would protect against a weapon strike or a prayer."

Call to War has been increased to +1 Divine.

-OOG Michael Smith
Last edit: 14 Aug 2014 20:59 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).

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14 Aug 2014 20:34 - 14 Aug 2014 21:00 #2 by Goggs (coryan)
Replied by Goggs (coryan) on topic Still more changes
Hey!

Good that Disordered Mind is being moved from first to fourth rank, but its effects now seem a lot less well-defined - I can see ambiguity about what might constitute "one specific topic" causing problems later on. Sorry, I wanted to have an alternate wording to suggest to you, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

We will look at it after the weekend - Michael S.

Was the intention with Efficiency to have it allow for smithing items to be created with one less unit, or have you decided to up it to five? Just wanted to be clear, as I thought this was a hangover from when bars of metal could contain between one and five units.

Darn it! I changed one of the fives to one, but not the first five.. which should have been one as well... -Michael S.

- A. C. Goggins
Quartermaster

OOG: Cory W-S
"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a Maul."
Last edit: 14 Aug 2014 21:00 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).
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14 Aug 2014 20:37 - 14 Aug 2014 21:07 #3 by Caldor Eirson (Caldor)
Replied by Caldor Eirson (Caldor) on topic Still more changes
Question about Anoint:

"Anoint
4 FP; Traits: Divine(Life), Latent, Defense
This prayer resists any casted effect that would drop the recipient to the Serious or Critical condition "

Does this mean any casted effect that specifically moves someone into Serious or Critical or would it also stop any spell that does so through damage?

I think of this as blocking the second to last casted effect that is going to kill you. So, let's say you get hit with something that would do 200 damage and you have 300 body, you can't use this ability. However, if you have 199 body (or 1 body), then you can use this ability, and you live! Note: This now works on all casted effects, not just prayers.

Also, if someone has assigned spell proficiency to a prayer or spell that has been significantly changed, will they be allowed to rewrite to reassign this if they want, or will they have to use normal unlearing rules?

You will be allowed to re-assign your spell profs freely - Michael S.

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14 Aug 2014 21:00 - 14 Aug 2014 21:09 #4 by geezer (geezer)
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic Still more changes
Rank 3

Necromantic Terror has been updated as follows:
“This spell causes an opponent to become frozen with fear. The opponent cannot move or take action of any kind for a duration of one minute. This is a mental effect, not a fear effect.

Seems very powerful. More effective than a stunning blow, essentially any who take a Necromantic Terror will suffer death in all likelihood.

Edwin Haroldson
Loremaster
Master of the Mages' Guild

An ethical person does the right thing when no one is watching.

OOG - Charlie Spiegel - Kitchen Marshal

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State..."
Last edit: 14 Aug 2014 21:09 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).
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14 Aug 2014 22:33 - 14 Aug 2014 22:35 #5 by rivanyasi (rivanyasi)
Replied by rivanyasi (rivanyasi) on topic Still more changes
Charlie:

Necromatic Terror is actually weaker now. It used to be a 1-min paralyze which also caused you to take an insanity after the fight.

I'm actually kind of disappointed that there's fewer ways for us to cause insanities... And I guess Lethal is off the table for lower-list skills now, too?

Na'ar Chacov, Soul of the Stars.

Ayiri Amexis, Sorceress' Apprentice.
Lupta Tamasa, Torn and Blackened.

OOG: Riva A.
Last edit: 14 Aug 2014 22:35 by rivanyasi (rivanyasi).

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14 Aug 2014 22:52 - 15 Aug 2014 02:01 #6 by NeeSoWee (NeeSoWee)
Replied by NeeSoWee (NeeSoWee) on topic Still more changes
Question....if one just became a cleric under a faith and now because of the rules change wants to undo that decision...can they do it with no reprocussions?

Come see me about the change you want to make. -Michael S.

Faith Protector Liam "NeeSoWee" S. McKraegar
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14 Aug 2014 22:57 - 15 Aug 2014 02:16 #7 by Illyrin Soral (Gaeth)
Replied by Illyrin Soral (Gaeth) on topic Still more changes
With Aid changing to be a rank 3 prayer, clerics will be unable to cast it. Will they be gaining some other ability to enable them to strike for divine damage for a period of time, or will their periodic attack skills (smite, holy strike) be the only way they can inflict divine? It seems a little odd to me that priests would have easier access to striking with divine than clerics (five minutes every time they spend 4 FP as opposed to expending a periodic for a single attack).

We will discuss this, good catch. - Michael S.

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Last edit: 15 Aug 2014 02:16 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).
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14 Aug 2014 23:04 #8 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
Replied by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix) on topic Still more changes
Nate:
You are correct that there are fewer ways for PCs to give insanities. You are also correct that there are no lower list lethal abilities.

Joe:
The addition of Visagalis is largely an IG change. If your character moves in that direction, please feel free to explore it.

Galen:
Currently, those would be the ways for a cleric to deal divine damage. You could also make good friends with a priest.

-Alexandre Blythewood

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14 Aug 2014 23:42 - 15 Aug 2014 02:17 #9 by Morgan (faewinds)
Replied by Morgan (faewinds) on topic Still more changes
Um, why does it seem like the bad guys are sorta getting made really weak? Like, Harvest your Soul suddenly only does 200 damage and a bunch of stuff that used to last a hour suddenly lasts about 5 minutes. Also, now that Glommites don't raise undead, why does Galladel oppose him?

Just a wee bit confused, sorry guys. :)

I do not think that the bad guys are getting made really weak, I think that they are coming into balance with the other skills in the game. Harvest your Soul and Grant Death now do the same damage as an Incapacitate but they have Magic and Divine respectively, and is better than an Incinerate Spell (for creatures not weak v. fire). Glomm seeks to turn everyone evil, Galladel prays for all souls to be redeemed and saved from damnation. - Michael S.

File Attachment:

Player: Mary Rose M.
Main: Morgan Cooper, High Priestess Of Glomm, Find Gregory Ya Gahdang Self
Alt: Fiona Hesperus, SAYTR NOT ANTHROPORMORPHIC PERSONIFICATION OF GOOD, Physician, Scholar
Alt: Elizabeth Spencer, Stonefall
Alt: Briar, Stonefall, Druid
Last edit: 15 Aug 2014 02:17 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).

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14 Aug 2014 23:50 #10 by Ib (Gannon)
Replied by Ib (Gannon) on topic Still more changes
With the change to Deep Pockets, what currently defends against Cut Purse?


Ib Flett
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14 Aug 2014 23:54 - 15 Aug 2014 02:21 #11 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
Replied by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix) on topic Still more changes
Mary:
Glomm was always so much more than the god of undead. Glomm is the god of corruption. He revels in turning good to evil, love to hate, friend to foe. He uses poison, sickness, and subterfuge. Galladel is the god of spiritual purity. He opposes Glomm because while Galladel desires to keep all things true to their nature, Glomm seeks to pervert that nature into something dark, something twisted. Undeath has always been just one of Glomm's facets.

Zach, you are much more eloquent than I am! - Michael S.

Gannon:
The bank.

Joking aside, there are a handful of defenses. Immaculate Defense, Resist, and Quick Reflexes come to mind, though I may be overruled by Mike or Damien.

Those would defend against it. - Michael S.

-Alexandre Blythewood

OOG: Zach Theis
Last edit: 15 Aug 2014 02:21 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).
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15 Aug 2014 05:53 #12 by Sindarion (Steven SA)
Replied by Sindarion (Steven SA) on topic Still more changes
I feel like they're also trying to make the "evil" stuff more playable for PCs, Mary Rose. Cause Disease might be an inconvenience when you get hit with it as a PC, but when you're casting it against NPCs, they usually don't have enough time to take a long-term effect. Likewise, you have the ridiculously powerful stuff, and not just the insta-crits like Grant Death and Harvest Your Soul, but also Shield of Suffering (anyone who hits you in a five minute span takes a 30 second daze?) and Curse of the Doomed (exponential body damage every minute for an hour that keeps recurring even after getting brought up from serious? Aside from the brokenness of it, it was probably a logistical nightmare to keep track of). So yay for game balance!

~ Knight Morgan "Sindarion" Sinclair
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15 Aug 2014 08:19 - 15 Aug 2014 08:32 #13 by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast)
Replied by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast) on topic Still more changes
Evil used to require a PC to be clever and careful. Which meant it was challenging to be evil and you didn't get to show off.

Now everyone is evil, because its easy. Abilities like Harvest your Soul, Grant Death, Necromantic Terror, Shield of Suffering. All need to be nerfed into the ground or removed entirely.

Evil lists are just straight up better in every way because of the RP / social sacrifice which was formerly required. I hope to see these changes go much further.

I could care less about min maxing and power gaming, however, pound for pound you're at a distinct disadvantage in a fight if you're a "good guy". Even after these changes.

Remember: "Kill your darlings"

Seek the truth and walk in the light,
Lucien Belfast
Priest of Valos

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Last edit: 15 Aug 2014 08:32 by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast).
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15 Aug 2014 08:36 #14 by Nadia (ChristineR)
Replied by Nadia (ChristineR) on topic Still more changes
I'm not sure if this is directly related but what exactly does Negate chaos affect?

From the Rulebook:

Negate Chaos

1 FP; Traits: Divine (Law), Ranged
This prayer negates an effect that is causing the recipient to behave in a raging or chaotic manner. It cannot negate fear or direct control effects, only effects that touch the mind for an instant and cause the subject to lose control of her sensibilities.


From what I could tell it would be chaotic alteration from the chaos warrior tree (since fear is a fear effect and despair is a social skill) but what else? I guess to me the wording seems pretty vague and with changes to the chaos domain I guess I am kinda wondering what effects this really works against now.

Also, I like this changes, I think it definitely makes everything more in line and I like that the "evil" (I mean if you REALLY want to look at it that way ;) ) stuff is less powerful and is becoming more balanced because it will bring stuff back to being about RP, which is why people should do things. (IMO)

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15 Aug 2014 09:06 - 21 Aug 2014 18:44 #15 by Draven Erdboren (Grundill)
Replied by Draven Erdboren (Grundill) on topic Still more changes
Here is my very long, and only mildly biased first impression of the changes. I do not intend these to be harsh, merely blunt and to the point. Hope it does not offend.

Valos
Imprison

6 FP; Traits: Divine (Law), Attack, Ranged, Condition (Immobilized)
This prayer confines an opponent within a divine barrier Imprisoning her for a duration of fifteen (15) minutes. The opponent cannot be moved or carried by any means.

No mention of ability to break free with a strength bonus, the only penalty is being unable to move the target. You can't break free from being immobilized with strength. -Michael S.

Tormenting Snare
4 FP; Traits: Divine (Torment), Attack, Ranged
This prayer instantly binds and gags an opponent with spiked chains. The opponent is bound by the hands and feet and gagged, rendered completely immobile and unable to speak. The bindings are not very secure, and can be cut loose with an edged weapon, broken loose by the opponent if she has Strength +4 or greater, or slipped out of by the opponent if she has the skill Escape. If the target does get loose of their bindings before the prayer expires, the target takes an additional 15 direct body damage. The bindings will disintegrate completely after five minutes.

Seems the Light version is much better in my opinion. 15 vs 5, no ability to break free vs str +4, the gagged trait, and ability to move the target does not make up for the 3x length improvement on the imprisonment spell in my opinion. both are rank 4 prayers, and while Imprisonment costs 2 fate points more, it is again, it lasts 3x longer.

While fundamentally the tag effects of Desperate Isolation have not changed much, all of the flavor for it is gone. It was one of the neatest, and most flavorful prayers i have read and now its just....boring... i get that IG it could be very difficult to impliment and keep track of, however i feel there may have been a better 'fix' than removing such an amazingly flavorful and God defining prayer. Same goes for removing the undead ability from Glomm, it was part of their way of worshiping, and another God defining ability ( and also one of the better reasons why Galladel dislikes them)

Shield of suffering - Ok after seeing this in effect, i agree it was OP no complaints on that one and completely agree with its alteration

Life Drain / Steal Vitality - pretty cool change, makes it more useful as 10BP is a drop in the bucket.


Corrupt strike - same effect as Despair - Does Corrupt Strike STACK if multipule uses are cast upon the target ? what if it is from different Casters ?

Temptation seems terribly useless and horribly limited in its use,when compared to Corrupted thoughts which is also a rank 1. and on first glance would seem to serve the same purpose.

Grovel - Much better wording but again the 'flavor text' has been removed from it also, does attacking while they are under the effects end them as in the previous incarnation ?

Necromantic Terror - Same just removed the insanity. Ok, not a big deal, same effect and just as absolutely brutal.

Havest your soul - Ok i get the move of getting away from low level abilities instantly dropping you into crit. am mostly OK with this.

Maul - Halved the usefulness of this, but remains a cost of 6 seems overpriced for what it does now


as for the newly re-banned / illegal prayers / spells needing to be 'nerfed' I have to point this out.
With greater risk to PC life and limb, should come greater reward.
. if ANYONE can cast light prayers and accepted magic and get away with it, why should those who have to cast from the shadows be just as powerful ? without the increased reward, the risk is hardly worth it.
I can cast incenerate and have it be legal, or harvest your soul and be imprisoned and both have the same exact effect. If i was a Necromancer, i would just ditch this and go back to fire mage, fare more useful if i dont have to hide myself casting it.

Anyway i hope this all comes off as constructive and not simply bashing the rules peoples hard work. I just wanted to attempt to shine some light on my first opinions on the situation.

Cheers !

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Last edit: 21 Aug 2014 18:44 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred).

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15 Aug 2014 09:15 #16 by LoisMaxwell (LoisMaxwell)
Replied by LoisMaxwell (LoisMaxwell) on topic Still more changes
No thoughts on the skills themselves, but for those talking about how these skills and evil PCs, please remember that these skill changes also apply to the NPCs we encounter. Nerfing "evil" skills may have more to do with PC vs NPC actions.

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15 Aug 2014 09:18 #17 by rivanyasi (rivanyasi)
Replied by rivanyasi (rivanyasi) on topic Still more changes
Also: Should Tormenting Snare have Condition (Held), as per Quick Bind?

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15 Aug 2014 12:35 #18 by Tim P (OrganicGolem)
Replied by Tim P (OrganicGolem) on topic Still more changes
I will try to keep this brief.

Harvest Your Soul has been updated as follows;

“Harvest Your Soul

6 MP; Traits: Arcane (Necromancy), Attack, Ranged
This spell inflicts catastrophic harm to an opponent, dealing 200 points of Magic Body damage. If used on an undead it will heal it for 200 body points.”


With Black Sorcery you are able to use this spell to heal yourself, but at a decreased rate (1/2) than the benefit to undead. Since it is being reduced by half, do you intend to leave the heroic ability as only healing 100, or will that skill be looked at being brought up now since it doesn't do as much numerically?


With regard to Maul, and Pulverize as Compared to Wither Limb:
I know sever limbs are considered to be more useful than break limbs, and as a result cost more. Since Maul and Pulverize only break a limb and daze a target, rather than Wither Limb having it effectively become severed, is the cost of 6 really justifiable anymore?


Regarding "Overpowered skills":
On paper I agree with the changes to skills like Shield of Suffering, Maul/Pulverize, and the nerf to damage on Harvest Your Soul and Grant Death, but as I think about it more I am starting to notice an issue. Previously it was accepted that spells were a little more powerful than their physical combat cousins. Which previously, was odd because there was no detriment to casted effects. In fact, previously spells were much harder to defend and that was a benefit in and of itself.
However now with body ratios functioning as well as they do, spells and their point cost greatly negatively effect your body. Additionally with regard to defending spells, Master Warrior now presents warrior classes with their much needed spell defenses (Such as Perfect Focus, Defiant Cover, and Immaculate Defense) whereas they are already able to defend their own classes really well using parry, resilience, and repels.
Take a caster now, who seems to have more defenses aimed at other casters on their master list (Negate, Mind Citadel, Elemental Ward) that do not really defend the warrior class of skills. Combine that with the fact that their lower list has limited ability to defend much of anything at all, and you have what most people considered casters to be for a long time: Glass cannons, dealing greater offensive effects to other classes but with limited abilities to defend. Particularly when you realize they're stuck with low body.
The thing is people are always thinking about these classes in terms of balance when they are mixed together. When we are presented with situations that people would call them overpowered, it's because you have have a shield and defenses off warrior and offenses off a caster list. I think that is the real problem that isn't really being fixed here by simply nerfing spells to be in line with warrior skills, and the problem is when someone just wants to play a caster they're going to be outclassed by a warrior.
At least that's how I feel, the warrior half of me is getting stronger than the caster part, to the point where I wonder why I bother casting anymore. Why would I spend so much build on a caster list when I can do the same thing with a warrior list (namely warrior itself) and have more body to show for it.



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15 Aug 2014 14:36 #19 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
Replied by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix) on topic Still more changes
Nate, yes, it should have the Condition (Held) trait.

Tim, we'll revisit these.

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15 Aug 2014 21:55 #20 by Terzak (TheArchMage)
Replied by Terzak (TheArchMage) on topic Still more changes
I have a name for Incite Rage:
Chaos Flurry.
Or
Anger of the Madman

By my hand,
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16 Aug 2014 00:40 #21 by Renji Shintaro (digitaldpad)
Replied by Renji Shintaro (digitaldpad) on topic Still more changes
Does necromantic terror still cause s minor insanity or was that dropped?

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19 Aug 2014 10:52 #22 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
Replied by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred) on topic Still more changes
If anyone else has any suggestions, I plan on referring to comments here on our discussion on the rules board. Thanks!

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19 Aug 2014 11:48 - 19 Aug 2014 11:58 #23 by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast)
Replied by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast) on topic Still more changes
Clerics can no longer cast "Aid"?

That seriously chows ass. Not only are bad guy prayers still 30% better but moving Aid to Rank 3 takes away one of the only things that makes being a Cleric viable or attractive on its own.

Half of all the evil prayers will make you blow willpowers and other mental defenses (which dont come cheap or conveniently)

And any weapons the good guys have are trashed by either being completely defensive/RP in nature or can be defended against by much cheaper skills.


I understand its super flavor of the month to play a bad guy currently, but I would appreciate a token effort to not be this biased when it comes to rules adjustments. This entire list of changes is wildly lopsided, as in , not even close.

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Last edit: 19 Aug 2014 11:58 by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast).
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19 Aug 2014 12:46 #24 by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor)
Replied by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor) on topic Still more changes
I do not play a caster, so I took some time to review the changes above, and compare them with current versions of the same Prayers, etc.

Where you have gone in and added traits, that seems to make sense in all cases. It makes the abilities easier to define, and so dictates how they may be defended against.

As for the renaming of certain prayers, some seem to be done for clarity or brevity. For example, changing “Rot Living Flesh” to “Rot” works fine. However, where the prayers have been renamed to remove a god’s name, this seems to me to remove some flavor from the game.

I understand it’s being done to accommodate Visagalis, but it just doesn’t “feel” right to me. Perhaps a better way to handle it would be to keep both names. Example “Galladel’s Release” remains the same. The description would include the sentence: When cast by a follower of Visagalis, the prayer is “Spirit’s Release” instead.
This would maintain the flavor for Galladel, and also allow Visagalis to put his own spin on it. It’s small, and subtle, but I think this might allow for just a little more RP flavor.


Regarding most of the changes to the prayers and domains- they don’t seem like “balancing” so much as “nerfing”. They also seem to specifically target the domains associated with the dark pantheon.

There were a few prayers that, as pointed out, were “no-brainers”. Toning them down for playability makes sense. Changes such as bringing “Harvest Your Soul” in line with other similar abilities, by dealing a max of 200 direct body, seems like a good call to me.

Example: “Curse of the Doomed” was frightening. However, the proposed change makes it all but useless. In this case, I would propose something like keeping its initial description, but allowing it to be stopped more easily. Perhaps certain Healer abilities would stop the count. This way it remains a terrifying skill, but not as inevitably effective. This change would also make it a much more effective PvE skill, while toning it way down for PvP, as many characters would have access to some kind of healing that might stop the effects.

As has already been pointed out by others, these changes do not create balance overall. Prayers were basically in-line with other casted effects already. If they had some powerful prayers, or some no-brainers, the same could be said for arcane magic or even warrior abilities. (Show me a fire mage who doesn’t have “Incinerate”…or a combat mage who doesn’t have the Fire sphere)

If these proposed changes take effect, the result will be to make Divine magic both less powerful and less appealing than Arcane magic or Psionics. In fact, take a look at psionics and you’ll notice that it’s *incredibly* powerful overall. I don’t advocate nerfing psionics, but if it’s not a problem for psions, then the prayers aren’t a problem for priests.


Also, (and again, this has already been said) there are certain domains and spheres that have an “RP cost” associated with them. This is part of the big picture, and perhaps seems beyond the scope of the proposed changes, but it is all tied together.

Both the in-game culture and the meta approach morality as something which is *only* measured by practicing Necromancy or worshipping a dark god. Characters treat each other abominably, all the time, and there are no consequences. However, as soon as a character is seen to practice either of the de facto “evil” paths, they are either ostracized or persecuted.

On the other hand, those who are part of the light clergy, secular authority, or the mage’s guild may act with impunity, and often outside the law of the land, to impose their will on whomever they see fit. A quick glance at recent posts on the “Dragon’s Claw Inn” forum will confirm this. Act in the name of one of these organizations, and you can attack/imprison/oppress and otherwise persecute anything and anyone you don’t like, with no repercussions, and without having to answer for it.

Necromancy and dark clergy are included in the rules. If the intention is that they should not be viable character choices, perhaps the options should be removed, or at least the difficulty of playing such a character should be noted.

If, however, they are intended as truly viable options, they should actually be playable. Either the culture of the game must be such that these characters aren’t immediately attacked/arrested or otherwise shut down, or the great risk of being found out should also provide some reward.

“Evil” is not the issue. There is a Rogue’s Guild. They engage in robbery, extortion, contract killings, etc… all activities that are clearly other than good. The RP is generally carried out with discretion, and they even have their own “rogue mods”. None of this negatively affects the game experience for *anyone*. It doesn’t turn Travance into a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Undoubtedly, there are valued and respected members of the town who are Assassins, Racketeers, etc.

Should not the same courtesy be extended to other paths which on the surface may seem evil, but which can function and cooperate as part of the society in Travance?

Tycho Montresor
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19 Aug 2014 13:03 #25 by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor)
Replied by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor) on topic Still more changes
Craig's post just made me take a closer look at the Sacrament domain.

Why nerf that? It seems fine the way it is, and as he points out, it makes Clerics a bit less viable.

If I don't see a need for the dark domains to be nerfed, I certainly don't see a need to take anything away from the light domains or players, especially as far as the power of their Prayers or abilities is concerned.

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19 Aug 2014 13:26 #26 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic Still more changes
My major issue is that as a Cleric, Aid was one of our only buffs for combat. Divine damage is not powerful unless on specific things, and even then it makes sense for it to be. Placing it to rank III, denies one of the only things Clerics can do combat wise that sets them apart from warrior and that is just a head scratcher for me. Why should Priests have access to a combat buff and not Clerics?

As far as the social issues that go along with certain prayers, the point made that the Church can act with impunity is not true at all. Right now we are very constrained on how we can act and under more scrutiny than ever before, admittedly due to past excesses. Do not take the Mage's Guild proclamations to mean the Church gets the same treatment, because it just isn't true.

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19 Aug 2014 13:31 #27 by Tim P (OrganicGolem)
Replied by Tim P (OrganicGolem) on topic Still more changes
On the behalf of someone who wishes to remain anonymous:

This proposed rule change is very rough on evil characters. Necromancy in particular is taking a severe beating, with Harvest Your Soul losing half the damage and the Lethal trait, and Feign Life/Necromantic Shroud losing 11 hours and 55 minutes of latency.

With the IG consequences of using necromancy being so severe, it is very difficult to justify learning it or using it when a fire mage can do as much damage without having to be secret about it. The risk v rewards, purely IG, are simply so unbalanced that the only reason I can think of that somebody would do it is to simply "be evil". My character has reasons for their actions and decisions, they chose to walk down this path for a reason, but removing the power from necromancy makes it necessary to rethink why my character would even bother with necromancy.

I understand the need for "balance" and the desire to not have lethal effects in lower lists, but this does seem a bit extreme. I suggest the following revisions:

Necromantic Shroud works for an hour instead of 5 minutes. It is still 8.5% as long as is currently worded in the book, but it is also long enough that a necromancer wouldn't need to recast it on themself mid fight.

Harvest Your Soul retains doing 400 damage, but only will place the target into Serious instead of Critical. This will keep the spell powerful, but make the targets healable by any means, not just those that bring a character out of crit.

Thank you for reading my opinion of this matter.




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19 Aug 2014 13:39 - 19 Aug 2014 14:41 #28 by Gilthu (Gilthu)
Replied by Gilthu (Gilthu) on topic Still more changes
Is there an in game explanation for the changes in name to the spells? When I first saw that there was a new god added to the list and that Gaia's name was being removed from her prayers, I immediately expected that someone had killed her, but if that isn't the case, then I see no reason for that change.

In fact it might be a balancing factor to prohibit the visagalis priests from learning any prayers that specifically have another deity's name in it.

Gaia's embrace sounds a lot more flavorful to this game than breath of life... Which in my personal opinion doesn't have the same umph.

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Last edit: 19 Aug 2014 14:41 by Gilthu (Gilthu). Reason: Tweaking, no not twerking you stupid phone....

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19 Aug 2014 13:41 #29 by Matt D (MattD)
Replied by Matt D (MattD) on topic Still more changes
I can't speak for all the RM's who were involved in the decision, but I feel the reason Sacrament had prayers such as Aid removed is because if you take a good look, EVERY domain now has 2 prayers per rank. Sacrament used to have 3 in some ranks.

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19 Aug 2014 13:45 #30 by Gilthu (Gilthu)
Replied by Gilthu (Gilthu) on topic Still more changes

Rayven wrote: I can't speak for all the RM's who were involved in the decision, but I feel the reason Sacrament had prayers such as Aid removed is because if you take a good look, EVERY domain now has 2 prayers per rank. Sacrament used to have 3 in some ranks.


That is true, but until recently sacrament was the one domain all gods had access to, right? I can't remember if any neutral gods prohibited it.

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