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19 Aug 2014 13:47 #31 by Caldor Eirson (Caldor)
Replied by Caldor Eirson (Caldor) on topic Still more changes
I have to agree with the flavor argument above. I think removing the gods name is taking some of the character of the spell away, especially since but for Visigalis, those spells are "unique" to the god.

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19 Aug 2014 13:57 #32 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic Still more changes

Rayven wrote: I can't speak for all the RM's who were involved in the decision, but I feel the reason Sacrament had prayers such as Aid removed is because if you take a good look, EVERY domain now has 2 prayers per rank. Sacrament used to have 3 in some ranks.


Thats fine and all, but taking a combat buff away from Cleric is not the way to go about it, in my opinion. I get the change to Consecrate. Why not have an ability like Aid moved to a Tag skill for Clerics too?

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19 Aug 2014 14:02 #33 by Donald MacFhionnlaigh (raidr0933)
Replied by Donald MacFhionnlaigh (raidr0933) on topic Still more changes
If you ask me about the visigalis weapon, it should be an axe of any size. reason: with a well crafted axe you can do many things: cut wood, plane, a single bit axe can be used as a hammer in a pinch, and its a fearsome weapon.

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19 Aug 2014 14:18 #34 by Gilthu (Gilthu)
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Brother Aldric wrote: Thats fine and all, but taking a combat buff away from Cleric is not the way to go about it, in my opinion. I get the change to Consecrate. Why not have an ability like Aid moved to a Tag skill for Clerics too?


I would actually like this a lot. It could be a self buff that lets you swing for divine and maybe other buffs. Similar to berzerker rage, spirit of the dragon or other similar effects. It would emphasize that while their connection to the gods is more of a physical role it is not of a lesser nature to that of a priest. Something I feel a lot of people think when talking about the tween classes.

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19 Aug 2014 14:22 #35 by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor)
Replied by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor) on topic Still more changes

Thats fine and all, but taking a combat buff away from Cleric is not the way to go about it, in my opinion


I agree. Sacrment domain, as it is available to all gods (except, currently, Visagalis), is a "utility" domain that helps define the Priest and Cleric professions. "Aid" is a prayer that helps make Clerics who they are. They should retain access to it.

While I understand that other domains have only two prayers per rank, we should not conflate symmetry with balance.

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19 Aug 2014 14:27 #36 by Gallion (Gallion)
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This is a general statement I made in the other thread and I will make it again in this one. Most of you have been doing just fine delivering constructive criticism that is not laced with attitude. Thank you.

Please "Think" before you post... and like posts. Please "Re-read" your posts before hitting send. When you put too much un-checked passion in a post, your words can come across more hurtful then intended and that really is not fair to the people who have been working very hard and have different opinions than you. Please propose suggestions and opinions with a kind and non sarcastic attitude. Thank you.



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19 Aug 2014 15:17 #37 by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor)
Replied by Tycho Montresor (Tycho Montresor) on topic Still more changes
In case I have offended or been careless with my wording...

I realize I've had much to say, and I hope it all came across as constructive and respectful.

It's easy to just consider the rules and forget that this is the effort of real people- and friends.

So, with that said- many thanks for opening this to our participation and feedback. Whatever the outcome, those of you who work so hard to make sure KR is an enjoyable experience for everyone have my appreciation and full support!

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19 Aug 2014 15:48 - 19 Aug 2014 15:52 #38 by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast)
Replied by Lucien Belfast (Lucien Belfast) on topic Still more changes
Nope , it was definitely me.

I will draft up some more constructive versions of my criticism to share here. Unfortunately my suggestion is to almost completely rewrite the abilities in question as I think they are "Unbalanceable" in the current state of the game as I see it.

My concerns stem from there being an overt amount of mind altering and killing abilities. These are dangerous to RP in two ways 1: You can't RP when you're dead 2: you can RP when you're CC'd.

Sure, you can act like you're having some sort of psychotic fit in the case of necromantic terror, or you can fall to a knee and pretend to be barely conscious in the event of some sort of stunning blow. What I think we really want (despite thinking we want more "Harvest your Soul") are the skills that our characters can use in order to tell the characters story, not necessarily be a killing machine.

Overall I think the tenor of the game world could benefit from a much needed "power down". People would feel less in danger (and therefor less likely to cheat) and there would be more room to solve problems diplomatically and creatively, and also work together in fights rather than just running amok. Those things combined -might- provide for a better platform for creative storytelling rather than a constant battle to overcome the insane amounts of raw killing power held in the hands of the player base.

Plainly, anything that looks or smells like a "Slay" or an "Incap" or "Harvest your soul" can go. Of course mine is an extreme point of view, and the idea of flattening out the power curve would have major effects on all other abilities (probably for the better).

That is simply my philosophical position. I will play no matter how closely the rules resemble a game of Munchkin.

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19 Aug 2014 22:02 #39 by Tyros (Tyros)
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Divine Domain Changes:
Overall, I feel that divine domains (both good and evil) should be slightly higher in power than Magic, Psionics, and Druidics. Since Divinity requires people to conform to the tenants of their god and if they fail to do so they may have their power taken away, this would be a reward for the additional RP required.
Example 1: Corrupt Health is a rank 3 that does 25 divine damage, currently. A slightly improved version would be that it does Divine Bane, aggravated damage, or is considered a lesser curse and doesn't heal until the curse is first removed.
Example 2: Luminescent Beam as a rank 4 does 50 divine and a blind effect. A slightly improved version would be that it does 75 or 100 divine damage which would bring it in line with some more damage prayers, but it wouldn't be 200 since it has a blind effect.

Chaos:
Disordered Mind – I worry that the staying silent isn't sufficient when being questioned. I don’t know anyone that questions someone, which would take silence as an acceptable response and not continue to push the question or become terribly suspicious. Personally, I would rather see something like, “The person attempting to use a detection ability has been foiled and is unable to detect if the answer is true or false for the duration of the truth detection.” By using something along these lines, the interrogator may be suspicious, but it now pushes the person be questioned to come up with a good story to try to make them believable.

Law:
Halt needs to be renamed. It sounds too much like “hold” and causes people to stop combat all together. Possible names could be Divine Restraint, Impede Movement, or Divine Impasse.

Necromancy:
Necromatic Shroud – I think this change looks good, but I would like to see something like allowing Spell Tether to work on these types of spells to allow for the chance to increase the duration as a good middle ground for the loss of duration.

With the removal of lethal lower list spells (which I agree with) will Arc-Caster be revisited to possibly add the lethal trait to a spell augment? It’s the only master list that doesn't have that option anymore.

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19 Aug 2014 23:52 #40 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic Still more changes
I am with ya on the Halt prayer. It really needs a new name. I like Interdiction as an alternative. Formal sounding, with a definition that fits with ceasing an attempt to flee.

Also in agreement with the RP requirements being somewhat more stringent than other casting classes, aside from perhaps Druid. I am not expecting a boost to the abilities, but it does bear keeping in mind.

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19 Aug 2014 23:55 #41 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
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Keeping "silent" when under truth detection is not something I ever liked. What if I was an interrogator & I phrased my question as thusly...
Interrogator: "If Sneaky Sam was NOT the guy who stabbed & killed Farmer Fred, just NOT be silent."
Shifty Steve (Sneaky Sam's partner to the crime of killing Farmer Fred): *calls truth detection defense that allows to stay silent*.

Problem with this is the defense only allows the user to not say anything, but if he/she wanted to make sure the questioner not know the truth, he has to say something.

The idea of the truth detection abilities vs the defenses is keeping silent can be used against the defender is the questioner phrases the question in the right way.

Interrogation in LARP is not something I see easily handled. I do not envy you folks in how to make it balanced.

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20 Aug 2014 00:03 #42 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
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Actually, Paul, I would rule that your example constitutes a violation of the spirit of the interrogation skills. Also, it's not a question. It's a statement, which happens to be instructions.

Furthermore, the clause "just not be silent" offends me on a grammatical level. :P

You're correct that interrogation skills are difficult to balance. Over the next month, as we revisit the prayers, we'll take all of the feedback into account.

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20 Aug 2014 00:35 #43 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
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OK, but if the interrogator prefaces his/her questions with "if you stay silent, I will assume the answer is yes", then asks "Did Sneaky Sam kill Farmer Fred?"... there's no way for Shifty to answer that without it registering as a lie.

Also, my apologies for the bad grammar. I'll make sure to watch Weird Al's Blurred Lines parody to re-educate myself. :cheer:

Yes, it would be a violation of the spirit of the rules, but there's been plenty of times the spirit has been violated due to other outside factors. (Man, that sounded so different in my head than I wrote it on here).

I haven't been around much for the entire Visagalis thing, so I'll leave my nose out of it, but.... so far I can say from what I've read is that this "diety" really doesn't serve anything other than just a way for players to play a "faith class" without really being connected to a faith. At least, that is the impression I'm getting from this new change. I could be totally wrong as I haven't been to game in a long time.

Renaming the prayers seems pretty good. I'm sure you all will polish them up in a short while.

The Cleric "Aid" spell does seem out of place for them to have it at 3rd. I see that Clerics are more martial than Priests. They get tag skills & the higher Body ratio. However, their prayers are really augments for them to use in a fight, & to take a specific augment like Aid & move it up reduces the effectiveness of the Cleric vs a Warrior/Swashbuckler/Ronin/Cavalier/other melee profession who gets a free buff from a friendly Priest/Mage.

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20 Aug 2014 00:43 #44 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
Replied by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix) on topic Still more changes
A torturer could absolutely say "if you remain silent, I'll assume the answer is yes." However, remaining silent does not, under the rules, constitute a response, and the torturer would not have successfully used an interrogation skill.

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20 Aug 2014 09:24 - 20 Aug 2014 09:45 #45 by Nadia (ChristineR)
Replied by Nadia (ChristineR) on topic Still more changes
As long as one doesn't lie, can one say other things? Or is remaining silent the only option?

For example (I can't think of a good one so I'm sorry in advance)

Torturer/interrogator: Do you follow a dark god?
Victim: There are dark gods.

Could the victim make true statements that are not related to themselves?

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20 Aug 2014 09:30 #46 by Goggs (coryan)
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Since we're talking about it: can I ask what was the reasoning that brought on the changes to Disordered Mind? It seemed to work pretty well, so I'm curious as to why it needed to be changed.

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20 Aug 2014 13:33 #47 by Bat Cooper (Cassius23)
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In regards to the "Aid" change, maybe if there was another way for a cleric to swing for divine like the witch hunters swing for posi(like divine energy concentration as a skill?). With things as they are if a group of Super Clerics comes across something that can only be affected by divine and there isn't a priest handy with a LOT of faith points all they can do is pout at it. This would make for an awkward situation if an angel of "insert deity name here" attacks a mass.

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20 Aug 2014 14:25 #48 by Gilthu (Gilthu)
Replied by Gilthu (Gilthu) on topic Still more changes

Bat Cooper wrote: In regards to the "Aid" change, maybe if there was another way for a cleric to swing for divine like the witch hunters swing for posi(like divine energy concentration as a skill?). With things as they are if a group of Super Clerics comes across something that can only be affected by divine and there isn't a priest handy with a LOT of faith points all they can do is pout at it. This would make for an awkward situation if an angel of "insert deity name here" attacks a mass.


Something like a "Divine Faith" periodic, faith. User channels their faith into a physical manifestation of their deity's power. When used the cleric swings for +1 divine, is immune to fear and terror effects. Lasts 5 minutes. Costs 4~6 build.

Something like that would be cool, and inline with berserker's rage and spirit of the dragon.

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20 Aug 2014 17:55 #49 by Adderyn 2 (Adderyn2)
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What about a + 0 or + 1 "Divine Proficiency" skill for The Cleric profession?
It could work as either a continuous skill, or as another option have it as a per period, short term buff similar to other combat augment skills.

Adderyn

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20 Aug 2014 22:09 #50 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
Replied by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred) on topic Still more changes
Once again, thank you everyone for their input. When I get home tomorrow, I will try to make an overview of the suggestions and post them to the rules marshals board. My hope is to get this done in a timely fashion.

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20 Aug 2014 22:10 #51 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
Replied by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred) on topic Still more changes
Also, if anyone hesitated on responding for in game reasons, send me a PM by tomorrow late afternoon and you will included in my initial overview, if you send it after that, I will copy and paste it without your name.

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23 Aug 2014 18:24 #52 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
Replied by Bladesworn (Bladesworn) on topic Still more changes

Gilthu wrote:

Bat Cooper wrote: In regards to the "Aid" change, maybe if there was another way for a cleric to swing for divine like the witch hunters swing for posi(like divine energy concentration as a skill?). With things as they are if a group of Super Clerics comes across something that can only be affected by divine and there isn't a priest handy with a LOT of faith points all they can do is pout at it. This would make for an awkward situation if an angel of "insert deity name here" attacks a mass.


Something like a "Divine Faith" periodic, faith. User channels their faith into a physical manifestation of their deity's power. When used the cleric swings for +1 divine, is immune to fear and terror effects. Lasts 5 minutes. Costs 4~6 build.

Something like that would be cool, and inline with berserker's rage and spirit of the dragon.


Maybe zomething called Zeal. Grants the Cleric either +1 Strength to all weapon strikes OR +0 Divine for 5 minutes, also grants +15 temp Body.

So the Cleric gets something that's like a weapon prof or a damage type against specific foes.

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27 Aug 2014 20:58 #53 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
Replied by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred) on topic Still more changes
Due to on going discussion, the changes discussed in this thread are NOT going to be implemented thus month. Again, thank you everyone for your input.

-OOG Michael Smith
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03 Sep 2014 00:38 #54 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic Still more changes
Just an additional comment to enter the discussion:

Changes to Sanctuary, moving Aid to Tier III.

It is of note that War has the exact same Prayer at Tier III called War Blade. It however adds +1 Divine as opposed to Aid which is +0 Divine for the same duration. Don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet.

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03 Sep 2014 10:40 #55 by Tom P (Father Ridigan)
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Seeing as how Visagalis does not have access to concecrate through the sacrament domain, would it be prudent to at the very least have that part go into effect?

Tom P

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05 Sep 2014 17:37 #56 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
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Of anyone is a priest of visagalis, please see me, and I will grant you the use of it for this event.

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11 Sep 2014 15:40 #57 by Caldor Eirson (Caldor)
Replied by Caldor Eirson (Caldor) on topic Still more changes
If someone has a scroll of a prayer or spell that is being removed from game, will the be given a replacement scroll, or will the old scroll remain in effect until used?

Caldor Eirson,

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Wedding Planner, Match Maker,
Vintner
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11 Sep 2014 20:57 #58 by Woolsey Bysmor (Osred)
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You may replace the scroll with another scroll you are capable of creating thst is of the same cost.

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11 Sep 2014 22:20 - 11 Sep 2014 22:21 #59 by NeeSoWee (NeeSoWee)
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I'll be honest, it might just be me but i'm cool with aid being moved to rank 3. There are other ways for you to swing divine. I thought the same thing and my earlier statement i was thinking of dropping cleric and going down another path. Then i thought hey i can have a priest cast it on me since most clerics should be close to one, and second i can just get a rune to allow me to constantly swing +0 divine. Clerics shouldn't be prayer casters leave that to the priest. We get stuff like Holy strike, smite and prayer shield. Smite allows us for 1 BP more than crit swing for a divine crit and if you have your faith holy weapon it adds +10 damage. Holy strike is just like cleave but adds divine to the damage. Who else gets prayer shield no one and to me thats baus. All in all they didn't take it away from us, just made it so we have to get it another way. I'm ok with this.

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Last edit: 11 Sep 2014 22:21 by NeeSoWee (NeeSoWee).

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11 Sep 2014 22:26 #60 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic Still more changes
My issue is that aid is already balanced for tier 2. Tier 3 has war blade, which is the same spell at a +1 divine. Also if you could do a thing then need someone to do the thing, yes, they took something from you.

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