normal Land System Action Changes

09 Mar 2015 21:48 - 13 Mar 2015 14:26 #1 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Land System Action Changes was created by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
First of all, Land System Actions are open for the April 1215 Event.
Actions will close after the 2015 Alt Event, specific date to be posted later.

Secondly there are a few changes in the land system.

1) Civil Service will continue to grant a second land action but that second action must follow these rules -- It may not be a Business action and it must be in the same settlement as your first action.

2) If you have Civil Service AND Quadrivium then you will be allowed to use your second action as a business action. Additionally if that second action is a business action then it no longer has to be in the same settlement as your first action (which can still be a business action or a non-business one). This new ability represents your PC leaving behind a detailed set of operating instructions as well as communicating via couriered messages to handle the unexpected.

3) Cause Mayhem has been replaced with 3 new actions. They are as follows: Disturbing the Peace, Criminal Action (Minor), Criminal Action (Standard) and Malicious Action. These new actions are designed to line up with the new Laws of Travance.

Disturbing the Peace -- Represents public protests or spreading of gossip as well as being drunk in public or other raucous behavior. While not illegal and thus not punishable there is still a chance of these failing.

These are temporarily suspended pending a review Criminal Action (Minor) -- Choose this action if you intend to break with one of the Laws of Travance which is punishable with a Minor Punishment
Success means that you get away with your crime. Failure means an NPC guardsmen catches you and you will be fined 10% of your bank account, minimum of 10 gold. This may cause your bank account to go negative. Optionally you may CHOOSE to be arrested by a PC guardsmen to serve a punishment at the next live game.

Criminal Action (Standard) -- Choose this action if you intend to break with one of the Laws of Travance which is punishable with a Standard Punishment
Success means that you get away with your crime. Failure means an NPC guardsmen catches you and you will be fined the entire contents of your bank account, minimum of 25 gold. This may cause your bank account to go negative. Optionally you may CHOOSE to be arrested by a PC guardsmen to serve a punishment at the next live game.

Malicious Action -- Choose this action if you intend to break with one of the Laws of Travance which is punishable with a Major Punishment (murder most notably)
This action automatically falls into the realm of PVP because the action is taken within the domain of a Noble. Success means that you get away with your crime. Failure of a Malicious action leads to information being given to Player Characters. This information can lead to in game consequences up to and including execution, banishment or obliteration.

Do not take a Malicious Action unless you are prepared to retire your character as a result of the actions taken.

3b) Chance of failure will be based on the Public Order number for the specific settlement where the action is taken and the amount of guards that are in that area. I haven't finalized the failure chances just yet but when I do I will post them with plenty of time for people to retract actions before actions close.


4) These four "negative" actions and the Petty Crime action are NOT allowed to be saved as your Default action

5) There is a new user interface to enter all of these actions in. Since it is NEW there may be bugs in it. Please let me know if it does something wacky and please bear with me if it does until I can get it fixed. The simplest way to confirm that your actions are indeed in the system (excluding default actions) is to simply reload the land action page... it should populate with your currently submitted actions if everything is working fine.

Any questions about these changes please let me know.

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Last edit: 13 Mar 2015 14:26 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042).

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09 Mar 2015 21:59 #2 by Andy (Andy)
Replied by Andy (Andy) on topic Land System Action Changes
Why would you want to commit any of these negative civil actions that seem to have no benefit or success option and only serious consequences?

How are all of these not considered PvP? Who would you be targeting with these actions? Can you rob another PC's business or target another character for murder? Aren't all of these crimes inherently going to impact another PC in some negative fashion, whether it be decreasing public order in the PC Lord's lands or possibly negatively effecting another PC's land action?

What exactly do these actions do for the land system?

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09 Mar 2015 22:57 #3 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes
Why would characters engage in negative actions in the land system? Role-play.

Are they PvP? No. You are not allowed to target PCs with these negative actions. You may not rob another PC's business or murder a PC in the Land System.

Yes, all of these crimes will negatively impact a Lord's land. Thus there is a risk of failure. We have specifically listed the possible punishments to go in line with the new laws so that you know which action to take and as a result what level of bad deed you can attempt with that action.

Crime happens in the land system. Most of it happens at the level where it is handled by the NPC militia in a town. This is all represented by numbers in the system and is mostly invisible to the PCs. The Lords will see some metrics move around. This is as it has been under Cause Mayhem but now it is handled with a bit more precision.

What exactly they do is allow people to have something to talk about that their character did between events.... and move some numbers around for the Lords.

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09 Mar 2015 22:59 #4 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes
Please note -- I corrected the punishment for the Criminal Action (Minor) in the original post to read 10% with a minimum of 10 gold.

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09 Mar 2015 23:25 #5 by Capt Locke (Jonathon)
Replied by Capt Locke (Jonathon) on topic Land System Action Changes
So the positive for engaging in these criminal actions is... Role-play (OK, sweet)

The negative is losing 10-100% of your banked gold... or at worse be ready to completely lose your character.

I don't think those equal out to the same.

IMO, no one in their right mind would ever take those chances.

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09 Mar 2015 23:39 #6 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes

Capt Locke wrote: So the positive for engaging in these criminal actions is... Role-play (OK, sweet)

The negative is losing 10-100% of your banked gold... or at worse be ready to completely lose your character.

I don't think those equal out to the same.

IMO, no one in their right mind would ever take those chances.


A) not all characters are in their right minds.
B) characters have been taking the Cause Mayhem action up til now... this just gives them more options / control / precision.
C) characters take these risky actions at games too. I mean, the guard does capture criminals and mete out punishment at the game. We're just bringing the punishments in the land system in line with that.
D) there are still a whole bunch of positive actions to take too.

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09 Mar 2015 23:45 #7 by Nicoletta (fyperia)
Replied by Nicoletta (fyperia) on topic Land System Action Changes
Is it possible to do two business actions in the same turn?

Will Quadrivium be made more available, since it only exists on six lists?

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09 Mar 2015 23:52 #8 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes

Angelica Tartaros wrote: Is it possible to do two business actions in the same turn?

Will Quadrivium be made more available, since it only exists on six lists?


If you have Civil Service and Quadrivium then your two actions could actually both be Business actions and they could also happen in different Lands and Settlements.

Of note -- your First Action still dictates which Settlement you are physically present in during the majority of the month. So if you do take two business actions keep that in mind if you also want to talk about where you were during that turn.

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10 Mar 2015 01:46 - 10 Mar 2015 01:47 #9 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix)
Replied by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix) on topic Land System Action Changes

B) characters have been taking the Cause Mayhem action up til now... this just gives them more options / control / precision.
C) characters take these risky actions at games too. I mean, the guard does capture criminals and mete out punishment at the game. We're just bringing the punishments in the land system in line with that.


I think the point that was being made here is that while there is a potential detriment to performing illegal land actions (which was not previously the case), there is no potential benefit to doing so.

There is a potential benefit to illegal actions at an event. That's why people take those actions.

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Last edit: 10 Mar 2015 01:47 by Alexandre Blythewood (Eleventh Phoenix).

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10 Mar 2015 02:47 #10 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic Land System Action Changes
Further, what prevents a criminal from just not banking their gold to avoid the fine?

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10 Mar 2015 03:17 #11 by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost)
Replied by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost) on topic Land System Action Changes
I am inclined to agree with what is being said. If my character should risk retirement over something as simple as a land action then the opposite should hold true as well. I am not going to risk death or retirement to kill John the farmer when another pc is my true target. There is no sense behind that risk. If I am to risk my life for the actions then the others lives should be at risk of being in the same peril.

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10 Mar 2015 03:49 #12 by Sindarion (Steven SA)
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I honestly like the new choices offered. It offers more control rather than just 'petty crimes,' and I think it can lead into interesting role play. However, I feel like any benefits to these illegal actions should be described in more detail. There's a clear risk factor involved, but the reward factor doesn't really seem to be present. Unless it's a case-by-case basis?

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10 Mar 2015 06:53 #13 by Caldor Eirson (Caldor)
Replied by Caldor Eirson (Caldor) on topic Land System Action Changes
I think that if one doesn't see the benefit of taking the action, don't take it. Also, the reward for negative actions may come from play... Just like when money was offered to take actions fixing the road or tending the proper's wildcards. In game offers of reward or in game plans or commands may necessitate these actions.

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10 Mar 2015 07:48 #14 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes
There were no potential benefits to Cause Mayhem before either. Yet people still took those actions for their characters.

There was a chance of failure for Cause Mayhem before. However that chance was determined on a case by case basis by me and the only downside really available was that other PCs found out about what was done by the Cause Mayhem action through their Land System responses. This left the impression that Cause Mayhem actions were either unstoppable or led to instant character retirement depending on your perspective. Now with a system of punishments in place (punishments administered by NPCs) we can help characters that have unsavory goals (of a non-PC targeting nature) to explore the seedy streets of the Land System within a framework where a small mistake doesn't cost them their character. We left in the Malicious Action option for those players that really wanted to risk it all.

On top of this, when James and I were discussing this change we realized that we were not representing "normal" crime very well in the system. So by introducing the new actions where the punishment is only a fine (which is also in line with the new laws just published) it allows us more options to move the numbers in the system to reflect background crime in a way that doesn't make people feel like they are being abused by an unpreventable crime. Now if a PC decides to rob a merchant we can provide him with a merchant to rob as well as enough background crime that they don't get easily caught or if they do get caught it is not a monumental event in the settlement but just another day at the office where a criminal was caught and fined and sent to the stocks. Additionally we will now also have some NPCs taking some of these actions in the Land System from time to time. This will serve to emulate that "background" level of crime that exists in the world and occasionally lead to PCs taking down NPC criminals or criminal organizations. Some of these NPCs may also make appearances at games to provide a tracking challenge for those characters as well.

Regarding criminals not banking their gold -- this is why there are minimums on these punishments that can then cause your bank account to go negative. Should your bank account go negative for too long we shall send out debt collectors at game. If the system of applying the punishment is abused I will find a way to fix that particular problem at that time.

If, in the end, you decide that these negative actions are not for you then do not take them. There are plenty of good things to do in the Land System. I suspect that there will still be people taking these actions however.

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10 Mar 2015 11:13 #15 by Dame Clytie Silverfang (itsgonnabemay)
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Why would anyone do it? Because it's their characters' decisions. Ultimately if their character is dead set on murdering innocents or completely ravaging trade routes, they're going to do it with (maybe) knowledge of the consequences should the be caught. If you don't think it makes sense for your character to commit criminal or malicious actions, don't have them perform criminal or malicious actions between games. That simple.

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10 Mar 2015 11:28 - 10 Mar 2015 11:30 #16 by Capt Locke (Jonathon)
Replied by Capt Locke (Jonathon) on topic Land System Action Changes
I'm not saying I wouldn't do it...

All I'm saying is that if I jack a merchant AT GAME (and completely get away with it ;) ), you know what I get... gold/stuff, and sweet cool RP.

If I jack a merchant "in-between" game (and succeed) I get... sweet cool RP(?).

With the same risk, the reward needs to be the same. Cause with both scenarios the consequences when you aren't successful ARE the same.

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10 Mar 2015 12:02 #17 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes

Capt Locke wrote: If I jack a merchant "in-between" game (and succeed) I get... sweet cool RP(?).

With the same risk, the reward needs to be the same. Cause with both scenarios the consequences when you aren't successful ARE the same.


I will take that under advisement and think about it for a few days. I will update if/when a change is made.

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10 Mar 2015 12:43 #18 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
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What if the Mayhem I wanna cause is nothing serious? Can I specify it & the location?

Take that Londwyn...

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10 Mar 2015 12:44 #19 by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings)
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That would be disturbing the peace

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10 Mar 2015 13:05 #20 by Andy (Andy)
Replied by Andy (Andy) on topic Land System Action Changes
It just seems to me like a lot of work for no real tangible effect (since public order seems not to be decreased in a settlement targeted by cause mayhem now) and the only outcome that means anything is the potential destruction of a PC. It seems unfair to offer up these unique RP opportunities for bad guys and then say the only thing they can gain from it is RP when everyone else who plays the system (even petty crimes) gets a real tangible benefit and none of the serious potential punishment.

Is there a way to counter these actions? Under the old system when characters could take illegal actions there were specific actions to catch them and root out the problem (Dark Forces investigation and some criminal investigation I think?). Will these actions be added back in?

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10 Mar 2015 13:33 #21 by Pluvious (Pluvious)
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I myself like the changes. I think what people are forgetting on major thing, this is an in between game action for a Live action RP game. Yes you can preform good and bad things and both will have some affect on the game in one form or another. I know some of you say that there is no reward for taking a bad action, but you forget one true fact.

The very act of committing said act and getting away with it is the reward!!
lets say I Bob hate Joe the baker. I Bob decide to make Joes life hell by committing acts against his business. I succeed. And feel that much happier knowing that my plan worked and I did not get caught plus Joes business is hurt in some negative way...win for bad guy!

you see people, stop looking at all the numbers/what you can gain all the time. and remember this is still a RP game. Yes Numbers, coin, items can help your character, but they do not define it....... you do

remember you don't have to take bad actions... but if you do, and get caught, prepare to pay in one form or another

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10 Mar 2015 14:06 #22 by Bladesworn (Bladesworn)
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I like Andy's idea of there being a way for PC's to investigate & find PC's who are committing "evil" acts. Inevitably, the Land Actions of Public Order will clash with the action of Cause Mayhem & lead to some sort of PvP type of action or story.

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10 Mar 2015 14:12 #23 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes

Bladesworn wrote: I like Andy's idea of there being a way for PC's to investigate & find PC's who are committing "evil" acts. Inevitably, the Land Actions of Public Order will clash with the action of Cause Mayhem & lead to some sort of PvP type of action or story.


Several ways that this can happen. 1) a PC talks about the evil they have done and gets caught through RP. 2) a PC takes a Malicious Action, gets talked to by me to verify that they really want to do this, receives a result of a failure and some PC in the same Settlement doing an appropriate action gets some information. This leads to more RP that could potentially lead to investigations etc... 3) a PC takes a Criminal Action (Minor or Standard) action, receives a failure and Opts to be arrested by a PC guardsmen which leads to more RP.

I'm sure there are more ways, but these are the ones designed into the system.

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10 Mar 2015 14:15 - 10 Mar 2015 14:16 #24 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes

Andy wrote: It just seems to me like a lot of work for no real tangible effect (since public order seems not to be decreased in a settlement targeted by cause mayhem now) and the only outcome that means anything is the potential destruction of a PC. It seems unfair to offer up these unique RP opportunities for bad guys and then say the only thing they can gain from it is RP when everyone else who plays the system (even petty crimes) gets a real tangible benefit and none of the serious potential punishment.


The numbers were not moving around as much as I wanted to see before so I have given the Land Marshals additional leeway to change the numbers based on the quality of the action writeup, the skills the character taking the action has to support it and the consistency with which said character has been doing those actions and also well planned coordinated action by multiple PCs. The numbers should start moving around a bit more vigorously this month.

Just to make one more point though, Positive actions (not including Business actions) don't come with tangible benefits to the PC either unless someone is rewarding them in game. And unless you are taking Malicious Action there is really very little risk to your PC other than to your bank account.

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Last edit: 10 Mar 2015 14:16 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042).

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10 Mar 2015 14:37 #25 by Gabrian Grottings (E.B)
Replied by Gabrian Grottings (E.B) on topic Land System Action Changes
While stats and rewards are nice there's this thing that we do- the reason we have this game. That thing is RP.

Good rp may not have specific numbers attached to it but it is more rewarding and empowering than anything that someone can write on your card for you.

Thank you, Joe (and your staff), for putting this system together for us and continually working to bring more nuance to it.


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10 Mar 2015 16:52 #26 by Croínamara (Jen)
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For all my good guy actions, the only tangible benefit i've received is getting to read some A+ wordsmithying from the card team as they explain just how stellar my drunken parties with sindarion really go off across the whole of travance.

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10 Mar 2015 23:59 #27 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes
Ok -- so I talked to James and some of the Staff tonight and we have decided to pull the following negative actions (Criminal Action (minor), Criminal Action (standard) and Malicious Action) out of circulation for this month. After the feedback we received today and further discussions we feel that we don't quite have the system for negative actions in the right place just yet and want to review them further before putting them back in. We view this as a temporary suspension of these actions and will update everyone when we put them back in and how they will work.

This still leaves the Petty Crime and the Disturbing the Peace negative actions.

If you have already entered a negative action we apologize for the inconvenience but please take the time to enter a new action to replace it.

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12 Apr 2015 23:26 #28 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic Land System Action Changes
New Rulebook is posted now.

www.knightrealms.com/forum/Announcements...k-posted.html#117826

Just to close out this thread -- We decided to go with Cause Mayhem PvE and Cause Mayhem PvP instead of the three Criminal Action variants previously posted. These two new Cause Mayhem actions will be live for the next Land System turn.

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13 Apr 2015 10:51 #29 by Birgitta Drexel (Birgitta)
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I had land actions set from last true event that have vanished. I did not change them from events of the Alt. anyone have any idea where they went?

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13 Apr 2015 11:29 #30 by LoisMaxwell (LoisMaxwell)
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We have an action in for you - was this not the one you submitted?

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"A Warrior who lives by the sword, dies by it. A Warrior who lives by his convictions, lives forever."

~Saint Garrison Corven, Ascended Paladin, to Carmac Alderonus

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