normal On the topic of Good versus Evil

28 Apr 2016 11:09 #1 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
On the topic of Good versus Evil was created by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
I believe that many are confusing the words Evil and Good with Wrong and with Right.

Long have we all known people who use Good to do terrible Wrongs and those who use Evil that have done tremendous Right things.

We all remember stories of just laws being used to punish wrongly and of great suffering stopped by a well placed blade. Let not fear of words stand in our way for Right action.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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28 Apr 2016 13:04 #2 by Fenri Kantaris (Miked)
Replied by Fenri Kantaris (Miked) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
I am glad someone else went ahead and stated this. Kormyrians seem to believe that you're simply good or evil, or that your actions are right or wrong.

This is simply not the case, more often than not there is no right or wrong, there's what must be done.

-FenR i

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28 Apr 2016 15:49 #3 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
I think you are misquoting the man. He is bringing up the dichotomy of the words Evil and Good and the means used to express them. You can do wrong to promote Good, and do Right to promote Evil in his viewpoint. I disagree with this, of course, but no where in his words did the word 'Kormyrian', occur. Your bias is your own. Do not place it in the mouth of another.

The idea of 'what must be done' is often a justification for something horrible. Be it done for Good reasons or Evil, what must be done is often a matter of perspective rather than a fact. It says more about the person saying them, than it does the Nation you malign, or the Ethos being originally discussed.

Your words say very little therefore.

Templar Aldric
Champion Fisherman of Amanthyre
Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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28 Apr 2016 16:02 #4 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Gunnar, I use a separate note, to make clear I hold your words as worthy of their own response.

Long have we all known people who use Good to do terrible Wrongs and those who use Evil that have done tremendous Right things.


'Use Good' is a misleading and I think counterproductive term. You dont use ethics, you let them instead guide you. If by that measure Good is guiding you, you will not knowingly commit Wrong. In the same vein, if you let Evil guide you, Right is not your aim either.

What I think you are meaning to say is that Good men sometimes commit Wrong in the name of a result they claim is Good. This is also a fallacy, but I concede happens with a depressing frequency. Good men who justify wicked acts are deluded into thinking that the ends justify their means. They do not.

I will so say they cannot be Good men who willingly place the means as insignificant to the end. If we were to live by such a fallacy as the 'ends justify the means', we would descend into barbarism with the idea that our gains of wickedness would then be used for good purposes. We do not live just to die. We live as fully as we may until our time comes. By fully living, we mean here that we live as we wish to be. If we live well and with moral purpose, we then die with that as our epitaph.

We should all endeavor to go before Galladel with the acts of our lives blameless and reach the paradise of Eodra. Galladel does not suffer fools who justify their acts of barbarism as balancing it with a result of the Greater Good. Valos does not look upon a war criminal with favor, just because his vile actions later saved lives. None of the Light Gods favor those who commit heinous acts in their name.

Templar Aldric
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Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



"The sacred writings are quite specific on the subject of killing, but are a bit fuzzier on the topic of kneecaps."

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28 Apr 2016 16:38 - 28 Apr 2016 17:03 #5 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Aldric,

I chose my words with great care. Allow me to clarify them in my own terms so that you may understand better my intent.

Fiona is the source of all things Good and Miranda is the source of all things Evil. The powers of the light and dark gods and light and dark Paladins flow from these two sources. This is what I have been told to be truth by many sources.

To use good power to do right then is to use the powers provided from these sources in the pursuit of undertaking actions that are morally correct.

To use evil power to do wrong then is to use the powers provided from those evil sources in the pursuit of undertaking actions that are morally incorrect.

But not all actions taken with the powers of good are inherently morally correct. Just the same not all actions taken with the powers of evil are inherently morally incorrect. It is just as easy for any one of us to make the right or the wrong choice on any day, regardless of which deity we worship or if we worship none at all.

One could arrive before Galladel having done nothing wrong and still be judged lacking for having done nothing right either. One could also take a path that was imperfect, making mistakes and atoning for them, learning through a full life lived authentically and, despite having done morally wrong at times, be judged fit.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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28 Apr 2016 17:06 #6 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
I think that this conversation would not be so complicated if we were to say Fiona was the source of all Blue power and Miranda the source of all Red power. The power itself just is.

We choose how the power is used. We choose as a community how those acts are judged.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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28 Apr 2016 18:30 - 01 May 2016 00:58 #7 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
However, reducing the ethos of Good and Evil to powers is not correct either. For then we might as well try to equate them to Positive and Negative energy. Indeed Fiona's mere presence infused the creatures of Amanthyhre with Positive energy. But, you must admit when we say Good we do not necessarily say Positive. This echoes your initial point, does it not?

The solution to your philosophical quandry is that Good and Evil are not powers. They are moral choices as you say. Choices made to use any power can err. But Good is not a power. Good is moral correctness, repeating your clarification. Moral Correctness alone does not do anything. For an action based on Good to take place a person must allow that ethical guidance to inform his choices. Once done so, Good choices result. So by definition, if one makes a choice in alignment with Good, the action so chosen is Good.

When one comes before Galladel, one does so with the whole of their life to be judged. Perhaps He is a fair Judge and takes consideration of the total impact one has on Arawyn to arrive at His decision. Thus wrong choices are judged with right choices, the total of which make up the Soul's debt. One can balance the scales of His judgement by atonement with Good choices to cancel the Evil ones so that the balance of debt is Positive, rather than Negative. But while the judgement of one's life can be termed Positive or Negative, Good and Evil themselves are not a value. They are beyond measuring.

The Anastazi so feared Good and Evil that they released the Null to prevent the 'infection' of morality. The Anastazi are pure Thought, made real. Good and Evil are born of Thought, but not Thoughts. Moral values are Ideals and as such transcend the reality from which they manifested. Being beyond Thought, they could not be contained by any defense conceived only with Thought. First the Fey, then the Dragons became infected with them. The Anastazi in despair quarantined our world lest Good and Evil continue to spread. Finally their great creation had to be destroyed, so great was their Fear. This is the basis for our current conflict.

If Good and Evil were merely powers, no such Fear would be required. Positive is countered by Negative, no threat exists once you realize how to combat them. And yet, here we are.

Templar Aldric
Champion Fisherman of Amanthyre
Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



"The sacred writings are quite specific on the subject of killing, but are a bit fuzzier on the topic of kneecaps."

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Last edit: 01 May 2016 00:58 by Templar Aldric (Selrik). Reason: Rename Anastazi to avoid offending the tribe. :)

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28 Apr 2016 18:57 #8 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Aldric,

Again you are reversing my chosen terms. Allow me to use my native tongue then to name the powers and Good and Evil to name the moral choices so that perhaps you can come to understand my meaning.

Fiona will henceforth be known as the source of all Mægen and Miranda as the source of all Hearm.

To use Mægen to do Good then is to use the powers provided from Fiona in the pursuit of undertaking actions that are morally correct.

To use Hearm to do Evil then is to use the powers provided from Miranda in the pursuit of undertaking actions that are morally incorrect.

But not all actions taken with Mægen are inherently Good. Just the same not all actions taken with Hearm are inherently Evil.

Does that make my statements clearer?

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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28 Apr 2016 19:07 #9 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
It is understood that Paladins and Dark Paladins both have their powers flow from the sources of Fiona and Miranda. It is possible for a Paladin to commit a wrong, and a Dark Paladin to intentionally make a morally correct choice. Is it the power that does the action, or the person who happens to be so empowered?

I agree that not all actions undertaken by those aligned to Good are inherently Good. Not all actions undertaken by those aligned by Evil are inherently Evil. But the crux of my objection is the 'power' is not undertaking any action. The user will make choices and those choices may or may not be in alignment to the user's alignment. But Fiona's Grace and Miranda's Fell influence themselves are polar and inherently aligned.

To say that Good or Evil can lead to opposing actions would be incorrect, it is always through the agency of a being aligned to Good or Evil that their actions may manifest. That is the meaning I think you are trying to explain, it is up to every individual to either choose right or wrong, merely being aligned to Good or Evil is not enough. Actions taken by Good people can still be egregiously wrong, and it is for that possibility that I will continue to preach of the Light, educating people on what is and is not Good.

Templar Aldric
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Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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28 Apr 2016 20:20 #10 by geezer (geezer)
Replied by geezer (geezer) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Gunnar - you state:
<<To use Mægen to do Good then is to use the powers provided from Fiona in the pursuit of undertaking actions that are morally correct.

To use Hearm to do Evil then is to use the powers provided from Miranda in the pursuit of undertaking actions that are morally incorrect.>>

What metric do you employ to categorically make the statement that the Evil done by the followers of Miranda using Hearm is "morally incorrect." In other words, what makes Fiona's methods inherently morally correct?

There exist a plethora of gods who would dispute the matter.

Edwin Haroldson
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28 Apr 2016 21:17 #11 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Aldric,

I think finally that we are speaking the same. The power itself is not Good or Evil, that is the name that society has given to it because much of the time Good was used for Good actions and Evil was used for Evil actions. But it is the PERSON that chooses and it is the ACTION taken along with its CONTEXT that determines whether that person is enacting Good or is enacting Evil.

Edwin,

In the quoted passage I was attempting to illustrate the difference between the power that I called Hearm and the morally incorrect actions that I was using the word Evil to describe. In other words I am NOT claiming that Fiona's methods are inherently Good or that Miranda's methods are inherently Evil. I am in fact claiming that it is only what one does with power that can be judged as being Good or Evil.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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28 Apr 2016 21:22 #12 by Kanas Whisperwood Silverfang (midgetelf)
Replied by Kanas Whisperwood Silverfang (midgetelf) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
I see it as this: No matter where the power is from, it is still power. It is like a sword. Even if this sword was forged by a Galladellian, or by a Glommite, it is still a sword. It is a weapon. What matters in the end is not how the weapon is used, or how, but why. Why is the sword wielded? Do you wield it to protect the people you love and care for? Or do you wield it to harm others?

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28 Apr 2016 21:40 #13 by Birgitta Drexel (Birgitta)
Replied by Birgitta Drexel (Birgitta) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Thats the result in some ways. Free will. That which is truly not understood by the Anastazi.

Its not good and evil that made the big changes happen. They were the catalyst and the two sisters embodied that good and evil in there free will.

As I understand it.

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28 Apr 2016 21:41 - 01 May 2016 00:59 #14 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
The only issue I have is characterizing Good and Evil as less than what they are. These are the great dilemma of the Anastazi. Good and Evil will be the downfall of the Anastazi, for this is why they want them erased.

The polar moral opposites are a source of power beyond the reach of the Anastazi, springing from the hearts and minds of all sentient beings. The quality of the Opposed Ethics, is such that they are powerless against it, and we can exist, through expression of Opposition, independent of the Astral Powers. This is an important concept.

Templar Aldric
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Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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28 Apr 2016 23:20 - 01 May 2016 00:59 #15 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil

Its not good and evil that made the big changes happen. They were the catalyst and the two sisters embodied that good and evil in there free will.


No. Free will is the result of thought, you can have free will and intelligence without moral values. The issue has been the opposition of Good and Evil. The Ascension Wars raged for millenia based on this ancient clash of forces. Fiona and Miranda are not expressions of Free Will, they are expressions of a primal force that went far past what the Anastazi wished. Opposition will continue to be the point of contention with them until they are defeated.

Templar Aldric
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Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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28 Apr 2016 23:22 #16 by Nicoletta (fyperia)
Replied by Nicoletta (fyperia) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Good (capital G) and Evil (capital E) are not moral concepts. Good, or Light, or "Mægen" as he calls it, is a power that flows from Fiona. Evil, or Darkness, or "Hearm" is a power that flows from Miranda.

Because of the nature of Good (Light), it is easy to do morally good (lowercase g) deeds using its power. Because of the nature of Evil (Darkness), it is easy to do morally evil (lowercase e) or "bad" deeds using its power.

But just as it is easy to kill with Fire, it is also in Fire's nature to cook, to provide heat, to provide a source of light.


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29 Apr 2016 00:21 #17 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Good is good. Evil is evil. Capitalizing them doesnt change the meaning any. The Light and the Dark flow from Fiona and Miranda. Good and Evil are moral values, ethics that derive from our understandings of Light and Dark. Powers of the Light are Good, whatever their application and intent. Powers of the Dark are Evil, whatever their application and intent.

However to say Good and Evil are not moral concepts or seek to derive some classification setting morality apart from the powers flowing from the two Opposed Sisters, is missing the point really. We already have Positive energy and Negative energy, to explain the powers flowing from them. When Good and Evil are discussed we now are in Divine concepts, and as such are inherently moral concepts. Yes, some powers of the Divine are considered Good, and Evil. Their quality is due to their Morality, not some specific trait of the weave. All powers Good, Evil, Neutral flow from the one Divine strand of the weave.

Templar Aldric
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29 Apr 2016 00:52 - 29 Apr 2016 00:53 #18 by Nicoletta (fyperia)
Replied by Nicoletta (fyperia) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Shall I keep that in mind next time innocents are bleeding to death in front of me, then, instead of showing our enemy my back as I try to save them?

Divinity does not come from the Weave. The powers of the Divine come from that which is powered by Miranda and Fiona.

Don't equate Order and Chaos to Good and Evil, either. Order is Positive Energy. It comes from Arawyn, from the Material. Chaos is Negative Energy. It is what Demons feed from, the destruction of Arawyn, brewed in the Abyss. Fiona and Miranda have nothing to do with these forces, do not confuse them. As Templar, you and I both know they are separate.

The slaves that don't get their powers from Fiona and Miranda get them from this world's essence, not the Fey's creation. Power does not equal morality. Power is twisted to the morality of its user. Do not tell me that this world has never seen a Gaian use her power to kill, or a Valosian his for tyranny. Do not tell me this world has never seen a Malycite uphold laws or a Galmachian save a life. All these things are moral constructs not tied to an Alignment.

Wizardry is not morality. Druidry is not morality. Good is not morality. Evil is not morality. Isn't arguing just for the sake of it something Mayhem does?

Cyfihi




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29 Apr 2016 07:43 #19 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Aldric,

You said that the "Powers of the Light are Good, whatever their application and intent. Powers of the Dark are Evil, whatever their application and intent."

Does this mean that you will automatically be judged upon meeting Galladel as having been Good? That being one who uses the Power of Good automatically makes you Morally Good regardless of your actions or inactions? Are you incapable of hatred or sloth, incapable of greed or lust? Or are these things that you need to work to avoid?

Do you have free will or are you merely a puppet controlled by your Mægen power?

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29 Apr 2016 10:58 #20 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
To both,

My position is that while we as individuals have free will on how to use the gifts, and indeed can sometimes use them in ways counter to their nature, their nature is based on an ethical framework that remains constant. You both take my statements and draw incorrect conclusions.

A Dark Clergy may use the miracles of their faith to save lives, seflessly, but the power would still be Dark. A Light Clergy may use their miracles to harm an innocent, but the power remains Light. In both cases, their diety may later take exception to this missue of their granted gifts, but they still are it's source. However, acting counter to the tenets of your God is and should be an exception rather than an open possibility.

A Dark Clergy makes the concious choice to draw from Darkness, and as a result the norm will be they will use that gift in a fashion consistent with Evil. That is the nature of the power they weild, their day to day choices can differ, but not without consequences and certainly not the vast majority of the time. Likewise, the Clergy of Light are bound to act with Goodness, lest their God take exception and act against them. Neither of the Opposed powers of Good and Evil can tolerate clergy that misuses their power for long.

Morality guides us all, for good or ill. Galladel's Judgement remains constant, and is based on one's actions in life. Regardless of the power we may weild, it's is our behavior and the impact on others that is taken into account.

Templar Aldric
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29 Apr 2016 11:55 #21 by Nicoletta (fyperia)
Replied by Nicoletta (fyperia) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
While typically, morally bad acts go against the nature and established tenets of the Light, the opposite is not necessarily true for the Darkness.

The Light has rules you must follow as its practitioner; the Darkness has an agenda, but generally cares not how it is completed.

Cyfihi




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29 Apr 2016 15:47 #22 by Ergos (arieslink)
Replied by Ergos (arieslink) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
While I myself am not highly educated on the topics of Good and Evil, nor Light and Darkness, I can certainly attest to things being Right and things being Wrong. In my travels, I have seen a great deal of wrongdoings, moreso than people doing Right, by both rulers and by subjects (mainly petty thieves), and these wrongdoers had no alignment with a higher power; it does not take a mystical power to perform Wrong nor Right actions. However, I must also add that a great deal of the acts that were Right were committed by those with this Good power, and I personally haven't seen the use of Evil power used for an act that is Right, although I am sure that they happen. Whenever I see Evil power being used to help others (generally in the form of protecting others from a living threat), it is either for personal gain by the user, or to protect their own hide.

That said, although Miranda may be the embodiment of Evil, I feel as though she will use this Evil power to do the Right thing, which in this case is defeat the Nulls. She is not only the embodiment of Evil power, I believe that she is the embodiment of wrongdoing, but a Wrongdoer can commit a Right act; my feeling is that it will be fueled by her desire to save her own hide.

Regardless of the debate of whether Light and Good are Right, and whether Darkness and Evil are Wrong, I believe that everyone involved in this debate has said that exceptions to these "rules" happen, and Miranda will almost definitely follow that exception for the matter at hand. However, I digress.

I myself am not educated enough on the matters of how the power of Good and Evil work to draw a conclusion as to what each party is morally drawn to, but from what I have seen, I can assume that were I more educated, I would agree with Aldric that the powers are very closely related to how the individual acts.

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29 Apr 2016 16:12 #23 by Nicoletta (fyperia)
Replied by Nicoletta (fyperia) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
You shouldn't throw around accusations about people you've never met.


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29 Apr 2016 17:29 #24 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Miranda may require...persuadung...to do the right thing. It's an opportunity for her to demand concessions, she will not pass up on the chance to leverage her suddenly great importance, over those who have kept her imprisoned for thousands of years. Evil has a nature, like Good, that is hard for it to deny.

Templar Aldric
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29 Apr 2016 19:34 #25 by Silverbow Patriarch (Ardin)
Replied by Silverbow Patriarch (Ardin) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
I have been around long enough to know that if Miranda is released and helps us, we will all pay a price. The question is: what will this price be and what will it cost us?

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29 Apr 2016 22:40 #26 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Finelee sum wun I uhgree with.


CHET

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30 Apr 2016 01:01 #27 by Ergos (arieslink)
Replied by Ergos (arieslink) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
Cyfihi,

I was simply making a generalization based upon my own findings in the world. It was not an accusation against anyone, I was simply trying to offer an outside perspective on the situation at hand. If you would notice, I made an attempt to make nothing appear as fact, because I know nothing on this matter for certain, I only tried to offer the opinion of a traveler.

Others,

I agree entirely, there will be some sort of a price to pay for the release of Miranda. With hope, that can be resolved once the Null are defeated (assuming they can be defeated again).

-Haz Polzin

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30 Apr 2016 08:30 - 30 Apr 2016 08:31 #28 by Swyft (agentswift)
Replied by Swyft (agentswift) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
You will never convince Brother Aldric.
He is blinded by the light of his conviction.


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Last edit: 30 Apr 2016 08:31 by Swyft (agentswift).

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30 Apr 2016 08:52 #29 by SlightlySaneBillliamm (SlightlySaneBillliamm)
Replied by SlightlySaneBillliamm (SlightlySaneBillliamm) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
He is not blind, he has conviction, integrity, and honor. Ye all should respect him, ye ken. Just cause he is not swayed, ye ken. People should stand against this, it should churn stomach, and make those who are truly good hurt. This a huge decision and a huge burden te bare. Takin' it any lighter makes ye a fool and a blowhard. Ye need dissent in order to t'ink of every last possible answer. We dinnae need sheep who follow t'e herd but people willing to look at all angles an' possibilities. I dinnae support frewin' Miranda but I also dinnae support her bein' imprisoned without a chance o' redemption.

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30 Apr 2016 09:51 #30 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of Good versus Evil
This conversation was clearly needed and I believe we have achieved what I set out to achieve, and open conversation about what the words we use mean and do not mean.

Aldric has great conviction as you would expect someone in his position to have, I respect this.

Cyrihi also has great conviction.

And though the tension in the conversation was apparent, there was a conversation.

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