normal On the topic of the gods

09 Jun 2016 23:02 #1 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
On the topic of the gods was created by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
In the north, it is very cold and living through each day is not certain. Tribes of two hundred or fewer people live in a small area and in each tribe there may be only a few elders of more than fifty years of age. The people each need to do multiple tasks and there is no room in such a small community for people dedicated solely to being spiritual advisors. Yet all of the gods are present in our daily lives and they all are due their respects. Each god, in turn, is responsible for their aspects and reverence is paid to each in due course. Sacrifices are made when the portents dictate and on specific holy days to each of the gods.

When a child is born the tribe praises Gaia and the elders call for a great celebration of life. When that same child grows to be a warrior she will call to Brazen to bless her shield and spear, Valos to ensure that she fights with justice and Enax to help her follow the orders she is given. Before she goes to battle she participates in a ritual to appease Glomm so that she may be free from corruption while in the field. Should she later fall in battle her companions will call to Agaura to see that her pain is not suffered in vain and to Galladel to see that she is judged fairly should she not survive her wounds. Upon returning home, perhaps too injured to fight as a warrior anymore, she is welcomed home with celebrations dedicated to Andorra. As she becomes an elder her wisdom is guided by Chronicler. As she dies, hopefully of old age, her body is consecrated with prayers to Glamachis to see that her soul is protected and her body remains peaceful in its death. At all times, a prayer to Malyc can be said to keep his mayhem at bay or to ensure it is visited only upon her enemies. This is how the gods are revered in the north.

Since coming to Travance I have learned quite a bit about the culture and methods of practicing religion here. You separate the gods into light, dark and neutral and so you separate yourselves into multiple tribes. This weakens you. It takes away your fundamental ability to operate as a tribe and one group or the other is in constant disharmony with one or more of the gods. Fiona is out now. Miranda will be out soon. There is no longer room for the luxury of a light or dark pantheon. There is no god that is neutral in this fight for our existence. I suggest that we come together as one people, one tribe, one church with all the gods working side by side. That we honor each of the gods for what they do and that we do not dishonor any gods with internal fighting.

I urge you to write down any grievances you may have and gather with your neighbors. Take these grievances to the fire and cast them in. Let the smoke that rises take your burdens away. Dance and sing and celebrate what we have in common. We are one tribe. We are Travance. And together we will win this fight.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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09 Jun 2016 23:15 #2 by Sergei Petsho (Bran MacInnes)
Replied by Sergei Petsho (Bran MacInnes) on topic On the topic of the gods
You got some mighty strange ways there, mate. I ain't one to walk around calling folks "heretic," but where I come from, man calls out to Glomm, he gets some weird looks. Followed by a mace to the mouth.

We don't hold with following the dark gods in the Highlands, and I dare you to call me and mine "weak" to my face.

You can take your honor for the dark gods and shove it. I got no honor for them.

You got some right kind ideas about how folks can work together. Good on ye for thinking such a thing is a thing what can happen. But the dark don't be caring. And know what? Neither be I.

You wait til the dark ones take from you with a laugh and a smile, then you tell me how we be all just one tribe and one church.

This ain't the north. And I ain't seen much folk think like you when I been up there either. Might be just you and yours be foolish enough to be thinking like that. Either way, don't be calling no dark names round me, less you be wanting to call them through broken teeth.

-Bran

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09 Jun 2016 23:45 #3 by Ergos (arieslink)
Replied by Ergos (arieslink) on topic On the topic of the gods
As one who worships no god but respects all, I can say that from what I've been told in my travels, Bran is speaking more of the truth than you, Gunnar. I mean no disrespect to anybody, but I've never heard of Agaura being sparing in her delivering of suffering, nor of Malyc being one to make deals with about who is to be caused mayhem. It's just not how it is.

However, I can agree that unity must be had when it comes to dealing with the threat at hand. The powers of all of the gods and all of Travance are necessary to ensure our existence. What happens beyond the threat of the Null is the choice of those who are not I, and may you all be looked upon favorably by your gods in the end; however, if we cannot unify to fight our unmakers, then your endeavors to serve your gods will have been in vain, and you will have dishonored them and committed egregious acts against them to let their world be unmade.

-Haz Polzin

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10 Jun 2016 00:03 #4 by Aleister (Aleister)
Replied by Aleister (Aleister) on topic On the topic of the gods
You don't speak for any of us.
Servant or slave.
You only see the small sheep.
You learn with bias.
We are far more human than you think.
Take a moment to learn like Gunnar.
Then make your assumptions.

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10 Jun 2016 07:17 - 10 Jun 2016 07:18 #5 by Aria (Aria)
Replied by Aria (Aria) on topic On the topic of the gods
I ask that you all use calm. I have seen what Gunner says in the bedouin lands we must be free to serve any god that comes and has need. I understand the anger and hatred, I was most guilty of that with regards towards Miranda, perhaps I still am.

However we do need to work together in what i have seen many followers of the dark gods step up and do amazing things, save the town and save me. Perhaps I have waited to long for this story but I was pulled from Malagon by an Aguarran. When no one else would or could save me, one was willing to risk his life and bring me back from my torture, corruption, and eventual turn to undead. I remain greatful to him. Never would i say you are evil I will wait for a hero to save me.

Like it or not there is a need for balance perhaps it is time for each man and woman to be judged on their own actions rather then who they pray to when the kneel needing help

Tari Zhafirah Stonebar Deldragon
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10 Jun 2016 07:22 #6 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of the gods
Bran - Thank you for your words, they prove my point exactly.

Haz - Bran does speak the truth but his truth and my truth are still both true.

But I can see that my words may need some clarification so that they may be fully understood. Please forgive my writing and my word choices, this is not my preferred way of relaying my story.

I have chosen Gaia as my patron god. She guides me and protects me and in turn I try to guide and protect others. I have traveled through many lands with her guidance giving of my role as a medicine man. Medicine men in my tribe do more than just heal bodies and minds, they heal communities. Travance, as a community, has a wound that has existed for many years.

In my tribe, the elders are the spirit guides. Each has a patron just as I have Gaia as mine. However the tribe is small, so not all gods have elders who have chosen them as a patron. So what are we to do in such a time when a sacrifice is demanded by a god and we have no elder dedicated to that god? The elders choose someone of the tribe to stand in for a day. They will dress as a bear or a snake or a wolf and they will take on this role for the ceremony for the good of the tribe. They will act in this role out of respect for the god even though that god is not their patron because the tribe needs them to. The tribe thanks them for this act. The tribe does not stone them or hurl insults at them.

Every god is owed respect in its own time. To disrespect the gods is to call their attention to you.

When I was a boy there was a calf that was born deformed. It was unable to stand as its legs were all twisted. The elders declared that Glomm had marked this calf for himself. The calf was sacrificed under the new moon and its body burned so that Glomm might be appeased. Were that to happen here I imagine that the town would adopt this calf as their mascot, build splints for its legs, use magics to make it fly or anything to avoid acknowledging that Glomm was hungry and wanted some steak. It is no wonder then that the dark gods continue to turn their eyes on Travance. They are hungry and you have not appeased them.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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10 Jun 2016 10:17 - 10 Jun 2016 10:27 #7 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic On the topic of the gods
I'm with Gunnar and Karkat on this one.

The sword is made by Brazen. The battle is led by Enax. The wounds are dealt by Agaura. The souls are judged by Galladel. Those who ought live are kept by Gaia, those who ought not are given to Galmachis. The field is a place of pure mayhem - Malyc's domain. Those who take the care to purify and say prayers for the dying are the Andorrans. Those who commit crimes in the name of victory are under Valos' judgment. Those who escape judgment such are rotted thoroughly by Glomm. And the reporting of the tragedies and victories? That's Chronicler.

Bran, don't let the light blind you. I've felt safer walking down the road with Jed than with Elric - and that's not to say Elric isn't wonderful - but the darkness sometimes is a better shield than the light.

Karkat, if my understandings here are too simplistic, please feel free to correct me.

With Enax's lead,
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10 Jun 2016 12:27 #8 by Leliana (ChristineR)
Replied by Leliana (ChristineR) on topic On the topic of the gods
You know, I had this whole rant ready for a lot of people who I assumed were going to be standing against Gunnar on this topic.

I was pleasantly surprised.

I would still like to state one thing, if one claims to have this ferocity against the other "pantheon" but then refuses to do anything about it because the "law" stands in the way, should really consider if their bias is their own or just the bias placed inside them by outside forces. To be honest you don't see much of us "dark" god worshipers running around threatening those who follow the "light" gods.

So maybe consider who really is being reasonable here.

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10 Jun 2016 12:46 #9 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of the gods
If I may clarify, the pantheon of Light and Dark are based on opposition. The Gods, from the beginning, were pitted in an eternal struggle. It's is through conflict that balance is derived. Co-existence does not bring balance, and artificially imposing co-existence merely confuses both sides.

Reasonableness is not the way of the Dark, anymore than it is of the Light. We both have roles to play to be sure, but we work at cross purposes too often for there to be an easy truce. Right now, we abide a truce imposed by necessity. It will not last, and to acknowledge that is being reasonable.

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10 Jun 2016 13:13 #10 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic On the topic of the gods
Were there a starving worshiper of Glomm, we should feed her, but I will not stand to appease the goddess she follows.


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10 Jun 2016 13:14 #11 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of the gods
The Ascendant war is over Templar. Come home so that we may embrace you. Take your rest, you have earned it.

I am not asking you to act against your patron god. Far from it. I am suggesting that you continue to strive for Justice. But to truly heal the rift in this land you must let others take care of the demands of the dark gods. Let those who are called to serve the dark gods do so. Let their offerings be sufficient to assuage them so that their attentions may be avoided.

Likewise, to those who work offerings to the dark gods, I ask that you let those who work for the light gods give up their offerings so that their gods may be similarly appeased. Let Templar Aldric guide all in the fair administration of Justice so that Valos is pleased.

The healing of this land demands a change in action. I pray that all will be strong enough to see this change brought about for the betterment of us all. Else we are doomed to failure.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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10 Jun 2016 13:34 #12 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of the gods
It would be nice to think it were possible, and to be sure by writs and laws we abide. But in the end Light and Dark will remain wary of each other. It would take a fundamental change in how the world is structured for that to change.

As for calling to different Gods as appropriate, we do, within our own pantheons. To ask we do otherwise is a bit unrealistic.

Primus Aldric
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Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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10 Jun 2016 13:45 #13 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic On the topic of the gods
Templar Aldric,

I'd argue there is a fundamental change afoot, and it glows purple, red, green, orange, and blue.

With Enax's lead,
Datu Guo Chenjing




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10 Jun 2016 13:52 #14 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of the gods
The Null are not here to change the structure of our world. They are here to erase it.

What I speak of is the existence of Light and Dark, as long as they exist so will the need to oppose each other. Might I also remind you all, it is through the existence of Light and Dark that we will save this world.

Primus Aldric
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10 Jun 2016 13:59 - 10 Jun 2016 14:00 #15 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic On the topic of the gods
Opposition and blind conflict are far removed from one another. I've yet to see Jed scream in someone's face about how Bran isn't a person. One can oppose and still be civil. It appears the dark is willing to accept that, but I have seen no such concessions from the light.

With Enax's lead,
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10 Jun 2016 14:35 #16 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic On the topic of the gods
Seeing as I have had Mr. Frost scream in my own face for a benign phrase spoken in Ancient Kormyrian and seeing as Mr. Tzaareth and I not only act civil with each other but enjoy breakfast together from time to time, I would have to disagree.


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10 Jun 2016 15:00 #17 by Ergos (arieslink)
Replied by Ergos (arieslink) on topic On the topic of the gods
Aldric,

If some sort of worshipper of the dark gods would enter your mass to cause an upset (not saying that they would, simply hypothetical), would that not change the way you delivered your mass? Just because it is not the mission of the Null to change the structure of the world, does not mean that they will not in the process, just like the imaginary dark follower does not mean to change your mass from talking about the gifts of the light to how the dark must be kept in check (or whatever it is that would happen, I'm not all too familiar with the way you deliver your masses). The Null are going to have an effect on the structures of the world. Enemies are becoming allies all over Arawyn to see about defeating the unmakers, and some of these former enemies may not feel compelled to return to their former ways. Everything changes, keep this in mind and try not to be blinded by the overwhelming Light that you possess.


To the rest of you,

I'd have to agree that for the most part, the Dark seems to be more willing than the Light to join forces, something that is both beautiful in one way and disturbing in another. Do not let the morals established for you be your bane. Allow yourself to accept the Dark if you are of the Light, just as the Dark seems to be accepting of the Light. If we can unify this "tribe" and stop our internal conflict, we will have our world back.

With great apologies for any offenses I have made against any of you,
Haz Polzin

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10 Jun 2016 16:57 #18 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of the gods
This is becoming tedious and you make several errors in logic. For one, I am actually at a loss as to what the point of the imaginary Dark God worshiper was in the first place. The Dark is very not 'accepting of the Light.' That is the nature of following a God in a pantheon of opposition. The Dark is no more willing than the Light to join forces. Consider that I will work with anyone to defeat the Null, to save us all. However, I appreciate that doing so will not change the basic conflict once the Null are gone.

That is not being blind, that is being realistic and you would do well to cultivate some of that realism yourself. Once the Null are gone all of these alliances of convenience will disappear. That is why making them is so dangerous and makes being vigilant to that danger so important. So many are quick to jump onto the bandwagon of finger wagging. Please, take some time to consider what the Dark is, before being so quick to support it.

As to Chenjing's point, it echoes this error and misses the point entirely. We of the Light will fight to defend you, protect the innocent and seek to spread harmony long after the Null are gone. That is our nature. What will the Dark do after they are no longer under our shared threat? This is not a call to attack the Dark, or a refusal to work to defeat the Null with any means we have at our disposal. It is a call to wake up, and be aware of the situation before assuming things.

Primus Aldric
Baronial Chaplain
Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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10 Jun 2016 17:05 #19 by Aleister (Aleister)
Replied by Aleister (Aleister) on topic On the topic of the gods
And what happens when we do not break the alliance first?
The olive branch is extended, Templar.
Will you and yours turn your back first?
Consider change.

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10 Jun 2016 17:18 #20 by Templar Aldric (Selrik)
Replied by Templar Aldric (Selrik) on topic On the topic of the gods
If the Dark acted in good faith, and the truce extended, the Light would continue to honor it.

I am skeptical that it will, but hope is of the Light just as much as vigilance. The change you ask me to consider would have to encompass both sides for it to work.

We will be watching.

Primus Aldric
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Prophet of the Holy Light
Templar of Valos



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10 Jun 2016 18:00 #21 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of the gods
Let this then mark the day upon which the healing of this community has begun. The healing will not be easy, but it is possible.

Should any need guidance on how to help with this process I am always available.

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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10 Jun 2016 18:25 - 10 Jun 2016 18:29 #22 by Caelvan (Caelvan)
Replied by Caelvan (Caelvan) on topic On the topic of the gods
"The Dark is no more willing than the Light to join forces."

Light and Dark co-exist in the wheel of Fate where I am from.

Chronicler, Galladel and Galmachis all work together to maintain it.

Father's Elric, and Belegchand and I have all had civil conversations on this point.


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10 Jun 2016 18:30 - 10 Jun 2016 18:33 #23 by Caldor Eirson (Caldor)
Replied by Caldor Eirson (Caldor) on topic On the topic of the gods
Chenjing,

Your words hurt deeply. I thought you knew us, or at least me, better.

Caldor

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10 Jun 2016 19:01 #24 by Elric_Ashby (Elric_Ashby)
Replied by Elric_Ashby (Elric_Ashby) on topic On the topic of the gods
To anyone who may find themselves reading this.

I have spoken with Galladel, as well as Galmachis.
I have fought both against and alongside followers of the dark.
I have had divine servants of the reaper request that I provide burial rights for the dead.

I have seen that, while there may be differing viewpoints, there is hope for coexistance. This past moon, I have openly provided the blessings of Galladel to all that fought alongside me, Protecting them from the horrors of undeath. Both Light and Dark were accepting of those blessings.
I have found that these differing viewpoints need not be a cause for conflict.
Allies can be found from all walks of life, and sometimes in the most unexpected forms.

I guess what I am trying to say is that when it comes to differing viewpoints of light and dark, let's just agree to disagree.

In the end, we will all find ourselves at the gates, preparing for our next life.

Signed,
Father Elric Ashby.
Artificer, Priest, and Warlord, In Galladel's name.

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10 Jun 2016 19:07 #25 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic On the topic of the gods
I have spoken far too readily of the perils of light.

Gothi Caldor is right - there are many who are not filled with needless disdain. Mostly, they are of the rooted goddesses of light - the rose Andorra and the tree Gaia. But among those shining gods are a select few who do not let their faith cloud their judgment before they meet a person: Father Donald MacFionnlaigh of Valos is welcoming and a fine example from that side; Father Elric Ashby of Galladel, as pointed out by the Z'Hade Enam, is also not one to jump needlessly to blows.

Those who encourage hate and disparity are fools, and in this, I have been foolish and beg forgiveness.

With Enax's lead,
Datu Guo Chenjing




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11 Jun 2016 03:47 #26 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic On the topic of the gods
Her forgiveness is yours, as is my own.


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11 Jun 2016 07:59 - 11 Jun 2016 11:32 #27 by Birgitta Drexel (Birgitta)
Replied by Birgitta Drexel (Birgitta) on topic On the topic of the gods
We have all learned a lot of things.

The Amber path came from the one who walked it first as Visagalis. Those that walked the path after exemplify the traits they held most dear in life or ascended by the blood of those that did so. The two sisters of good and evil influence the world regardless of where they may reside and the Ascension war was created to give the Anastasi the answer of which is more powerful.

In this all free will has been created.

Choice in its simplist terms and choices may change by the influence of the living directly on that person. Were all that in balance then the way described at the start of this is possible. Each being in its balawick and each to their own. But when events turn as described by some, both dark and light in their choices so, they lean to those choices.

In choices of extreme devotion, they rage on so... and the answer for them is not yet found. Mark my words if you care to, but I see the War restarting as soon as the Null are dealt with and possibly sooner because of these very discussions.

Mind you not the discussions themselves but because the debate still rages here. I'm betting it still rages there among the Anastasi too or are watching and learning about this aspect even now.

The women need each other. They are sisters in sibling rivalry that is cosmic or at least worldly. It's reflected in so many siblings in the world too.

If their first memory is playing in a field cared by an aspect priest I put forth this isn't their first incarnations either. The Aspect priest who raised them already had to exist.

So there are many right and wrongs still to be sussed out here.

Keep the faith, whatever your faith is but be aware a sessession of hostility is not an end nor is it an answer. It's a pause.

Just some thoughts on the subject from a Mercenary Commander.

Cmd. B. Drexel

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Last edit: 11 Jun 2016 11:32 by Birgitta Drexel (Birgitta). Reason: Spelling typos and phone acting up
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11 Jun 2016 21:14 #28 by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042)
Replied by Gunnar Gunnarson (jhines0042) on topic On the topic of the gods
Cmd. B. Drexel,

You are wise to say that a break in fighting does not mean an end to all fighting.

As a community, we need to come together and heal. That healing process will be long and difficult and it will not transpire perfectly. There will be challenges both internal and external. There will be setbacks and triumphs. We will learn and we will grow and we will change.

There may be people who do not wish to see our community change and who will choose to prevent the healing for personal gain or out of pure stubbornness. Those people should be brought forward and confronted with the error of their ways. They should be given a choice, either to join the community in healing or to find a new community elsewhere.

I ask all who will join me in healing this community to place your mark below to show that we have the desire to come together and move forward as one tribe.

(OOG -- place your mark but clicking "Thank You")

Gunnar Gunnarson, Medicine Man
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11 Jun 2016 21:26 #29 by Edmund Patterson (Edmund)
Replied by Edmund Patterson (Edmund) on topic On the topic of the gods
Hello Everyone!

Does that mean someone of the "Neutral" or "Dark" clergy will have a chance to say benediction at feast?

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11 Jun 2016 21:37 #30 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic On the topic of the gods
Considering Belegchand gave benediction at this past Feast, I would say that that is at least partially the case already, Edmund.


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