normal Degrading Dead Bodies

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06 Oct 2016 21:52 #1 by Liz (Liz)
Degrading Dead Bodies was created by Liz (Liz)
Last moon, I received reports that people were casting prayers and spells on dead bodies to reduce them to dust. In relation to that, I also received complaints about this practice. I was informed also that it happened to my dead body Sunday morning which I personally find distasteful. After consulting with Captain Tenderson, I am announcing the following:

If you wish to use any prayer, spell, or ability to reduce a corpse to ashes, you must ask the spirit first. That can be through Galladellian prayers or Galamachian prayers or some other form of speaking with the dead that I am not aware of. On that note, if there IS a way to do that that I am not aware of, please inform me. Should the spirit acquiesce, you may do so. If the spirit does NOT, you may NOT do so. Doing so without the spirits consent will be treated as assault as you are going against someone's wishes.

Any questions, please direct them to myself or Captain Tenderson or both.

-Lieutenant Allyce

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Mae Fang Zhang
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06 Oct 2016 22:34 - 06 Oct 2016 22:34 #2 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
((OOG: Not Chenjing))

DOESÐISAPPLYONLYTOTRAVANCIANSORALSOTOSOCALLEDENEMIESOFÐETOWN
WILLTHEREBEANYPENALTIESTOÐOSEWHOBURNEDHUNDREDSOFVENIERCORPSESORAREÐEYCONSIDEREDLESSBECAUSEÐEYCAMEINWAR

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06 Oct 2016 22:43 #3 by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost)
Replied by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
So allow me to ask the questions that have seem to come to multiple people's minds.

First, you are allowing people to use a Galmachian prayer to speak with the dead? Last I checked you would need to possess a Writ to Practice Dark Arts in order for this to be valid. If I am wrong then I shall offer my services in making psalms for everyone to use.

Secondly, while most prefer their bodies to be buried or burnt, decomposing a corpse does not make it ash, it speeds up the natural decay of a corpse. This proved beneficial in this past feast as not to allow the bone harvesting beast to feed off of the corpses. I myself presided over several acts of burial rites combined with the decomposition of bodies. They were consecrated and decomposed so the beast could not desecrate them in death as it had in life.

Thirdly, I would like to point out that during the early hours of the sunday of this past feast YOU we afflicted in some manner by a plant of some sort and the only way to rid your body of that parasite was to decompose you and the plant, this was once again performed by me.

Lastly, In light of this coming up I wish to leave you with this bit of knowledge. If bodies are not tended to, taken care of or ultimately dealt with in a short period of time they are typically left and never taken care of at all. Too many has been the time that I have seen Travance as a whole destroy their opponents and do nothing to tend to the dead. This is a problem. Necromancers thrive in this accursed land, have you wondered why? Also please allow me to point out the two individuals who were SELLING body parts and not one but TWO dead bodies. The only judgement was simple arrest. That is unforgivable, that is a violation of faith not just my own and nature as a whole. You ask people to use their abilities to defend Travance but bind the hands they use to do it with. I have my faith and it always comes first, I will not begin to riot or speak against the barony and her laws but I will not be told I cannot fulfill my tenants, so long as I live and breathe my service is to Galmachis. Please ask the Captain to expect a private missive regarding this matter no later than tomorrow afternoon.

Baht A'tal Damien Mograinne
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06 Oct 2016 22:50 - 06 Oct 2016 23:02 #4 by Liz (Liz)
Replied by Liz (Liz) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Father Damien Mograinne,

I did not ask reasons why it was done. I am stating what it is now. If you have a writ- and I know you and Merikh do- you may do as the law requires and ask the body that simple question if you wish to decompose it. Or dont ask and dont do it. Consecrating the body I am told eliminates the danger of a necromancer raising it and it is applauded. The body decomposes naturally after a few hours or after the spirit comes through. Speeding that process up reduces the amount of time that someone can actually perform burial rites and take care of their dead. Excuse me if I am wrong, but isn't that important as well?

I am binding no hands by this declaration. Asking a spirit (and Galladellians do not need a writ for this- very simply find one and ask) if they wish their body to be subjected to something further is respecting the dead to my mind. In the circumstance you speak of, I would think having a druid come and investigate and find out exactly what happened to me a better idea then just destroying my body. The "bone eater" was dead and gone before I died the second time. Indeed, my body was actually not decomposed Friday night after my encounter with it- I came through the phokus and the body disappeared as is normal for that way. Others may have been grateful for your intervention because of the creature using their body. Hence you ask. Either way. Write as you wish. Justify as you wish. This is not retroactive. This is how it is going forward until and unless it changes.

As for the arrest you speak of, many people are arrested and charged and sentenced later. I cannot speak for this case because I was called away but I do assure you, jailtime is never a suitable punishment and is never the outcome.

-Allyce

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Mae Fang Zhang
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06 Oct 2016 23:02 - 06 Oct 2016 23:05 #5 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
[OOG: Nalick did his level-best to imitate the spelling]

AgharÞa,

All who set foot in Travance are subject to her laws, so long as the crime was committed within her borders. That the laws of the Barony make no distinction and the impracticality of investigating every single body as to whether or not they are an official subject here, should be enough reason not to desecrate.


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06 Oct 2016 23:27 - 06 Oct 2016 23:54 #6 by Midori Suarez (krykit)
Replied by Midori Suarez (krykit) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Mr. Nalick,

I think he or she means does this law still protect the enemies of Travance from having their bodies decomposed, or just citizens. Is that right, AgharÞa?

-Midori Suarez
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06 Oct 2016 23:43 #7 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
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YES
WHENSVAVASWARPARTYCAMEÞROUGHHUNDREDSOFVENIERWEREPILEDANDDESTROYED
ÐEYWEREDENIEDAPROPERWARRIORSBURIALANDWEREDISPOSEDLIKEFIRELOGS
WILLÐENÐENORÞMANNENOFVENIERBEGIVENRESPECTINDEAÞUNLIKEBEFOREORAREÐEYLESSERBECAUSEÐEYARENOTOFTRAVANCE
ÐEREISAPIKEOFMIÞRILSTILLSTAINEDWIÞVENIERASHANDIWANTASSURANCESUCHWILLNOTAGAINPASSUNNOTICED

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07 Oct 2016 00:19 - 07 Oct 2016 00:22 #8 by O. Nesterin (kuemanner)
Replied by O. Nesterin (kuemanner) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
You mention aiding in the decomposition of the bodies does not leave time for proper burial rites. If we are given permission by their loved ones to decompose their bodies are we allowed to do so? Of course after the proper investigation is completed. As a Decay Druid I believe that return the bodies energy back to Arawyn will aid in allowing for other life to grow in place of where the person is lost. I am only speaking in reference to Decay Druidics for I do not have knowledge of any other methods.

Thank you for your time,

O. Nesterin

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07 Oct 2016 00:27 #9 by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost)
Replied by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Nesterin,

I was using the same method you were and you have seen the result of my actions.

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07 Oct 2016 00:41 #10 by Liz (Liz)
Replied by Liz (Liz) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Let me make something very clear.

NO ONE is being accused here. Please stop acting like you are being targeted. I brought up the reason that this is being looked at at all.

Bodies naturally decompose. Aiding in that is not exactly necessary. If loved ones are there, ask them. But also ask the spirit. Its likely that it would agree with said loves ones in any case. I truly do not see why burying a body is so difficult an idea- we literally have people we employ to do so honorably. If there are incidents with said employed people, let me know and it shall be investigated. I also truly do not understand why this is being held as such an issue. It normally doesn't even happen to my knowledge unless asked for. This is merely to clarify that you have to ask. This is to protect YOUR wishes as well as anyone else's.

-Allyce

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Mae Fang Zhang
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07 Oct 2016 01:39 #11 by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings)
Replied by Grimkjell Eirson (BillHannings) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
A guardsman was recently decayed after death with no such permission given. I was not pleased.

Don't destroy evidence again, or you will be charged with interfering with the guard in the course of their duties.

That written down, the Veneir were burned en masse because it was considered dishonorable and unsafe to leave them for the crows. Burning is an acceptable method of disposal of corpses, though it is perhaps less polite than burying them. It is not outside of the ways of the northman to burn a body on the ice, where the ground is too cold or the ice too thick to bury them.

They were not so-called enemies of Travance. They came to us with blade in hand and hate in their hearts. They were our foes. I will not leave them to be crow-meat, but their assault on Travance and the Cheveyo cost them much of their honor. Those Venier who visited travance more recently in our rally against the nulls were far less dishonorable, and notably none died by our hand.

Many on the guard, the captain and myself included, follow the Judge. Corpses will be seen to and dealt with in a manner than does not desecrate them. It would be advisable to leave this topic be for now, however.

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07 Oct 2016 02:10 #12 by Mantel (sigma-j)
Replied by Mantel (sigma-j) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Let it be known this day and ever that should the utility of the absence of my body outweigh the utility of its proper rites, I consent to its immediate destruction. I do not discriminate on the method, though prefer decomposition, so the vital materials that I have inherited can be passed on to nature.

By Galladel, we possess soul everlasting; why is my lifeless corpse entitled to longer on this plane than my soul inhabits it? It is simply a pointless waste of resources.

I will carry a copy of this letter on my breast for the rest of my natural life. I encourage others to do the same. Many among the Travanceans have the courtesy of searching the dead for identifying materials, and for last wishes. This is another practice that I urge my kinsmen to uphold.

Should this letter stand the tests that my body fail, it shall stand as binding testament to my will. And it shall be done.

--Mantel Warrane, Mere Implement of Brazen

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07 Oct 2016 06:20 #13 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Ms. Midori,

My thanks for your clarification, but I do have one minor quibble. All who reside here are subjects and not citizens.

Nesterin,

If you are given permssion, by all means. Therein lies the entire purpose of Lt. Allyce's notice here on this board.


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07 Oct 2016 08:15 #14 by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample)
Replied by Belketra Folles (pleasantexample) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
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ÐENMAYITBESAIDÐATITISBETTERTOLETÐEBODIESBEBURNEDONEBYONEANDNOTINADISRESPECTFULPILE
NONEEXPECTENEMIESWHOCOMEWIÞBAREDBLADESATRUEPROPERCEREMONYBUTATLEASTMAYITBEÐEWINDÐATCOMBINESÐEIRBODIESANDNOTÐEIRFOES
BETTERTOBEDESTROYEDLIKETROLLSÐANDESTROYEDLIKELOGS
IKNOWÐATÐOSEWHOCAMEWITHAGAURASGYÐIAGERRAWERENOTFELLEDORDEFILEDANDÐATISGOODANDIAMGRATEFULFORÐAT

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07 Oct 2016 09:30 #15 by Dunn Ironwill (JackDimms)
Replied by Dunn Ironwill (JackDimms) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Look at all of you, at each others throats over respect for the dead, yet how many have rooted through corpses for gold?

I had a similar situation happen a few moons ago. Some ritual in Kaladonia was happening and people were left to suffer on the ground bleeding out slowly. A healer, I believe Thalia stated to slit their throats and it would help the process go faster, ending unneeded suffering to those afflicted but alas... I was attempting to help only to be threatened by a guardsman!

Why is it that those simply trying to help and make sure people are safe are accosted the most? I pray for the day that Travance sees people trying to help and puts them up on the mantle they deserve to be on!

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07 Oct 2016 10:07 - 07 Oct 2016 11:06 #16 by Midori Suarez (krykit)
Replied by Midori Suarez (krykit) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Nalick,

I am confused. What is the difference between a subject and a citizen?

Everyone else:

Everybody's getting so angry! I've lived in a lot of different places and everybody seems to have different ideas about what is a respectful way to take care of a dead body and what is desecration. Some places bury their dead. Others burn them. Others send them into the sea. Some, like my friend, Bitzzz, even eat their dead so that they will always have a piece of their loved ones with them. I think Mr. Mantel is smart to carry a note with him that tells people how he would like to be treated. Maybe I will do that too.

I think that Damien and Nesterin and others were not trying to disrespect the dead or destroy evidence. They were trying to protect their bodies from the scary monsters that wanted to eat their bones, and the rest of Travance too so the monster didn't get stronger. That was smart, and I think better for the people who were dead than to be eaten by a monster.

Miss Allyce isn't saying anyone's in trouble for that. She's not yelling at anybody. She's just asking that, in the future, now that the monster is gone, people ask the soul's permission before doing something like that because some people might not want that.

Agartha, I don't think they meant to disrespect your people (they are your people right? I shouldn't assume you are a Vanier just because of what you're writing). I think they probably didn't know your culture and their customs as well as you do. I would like to learn though. If you're going to stay in town for any length of time, maybe you could do me the honor of teaching me? Then in the future, if we have any more Vanier dead (hopefully not), then we will know the right way to care for them if you help us.

Mr. Grim also raises a good point. How can the guard investigate anything if they can't examine the body? If you don't know how someone died, then maybe we can call the guards before we do anything else so that they can get what they need to as fast as possible. The sooner that happens, the sooner people can take care of the dead.

Mr. Ironwill, thank you for helping. They shouldn't have threatened you, but maybe they just had everything in hand. Rituals are funny like that. The slightest thing could mess it up, and maybe they were afraid that would happen and they overreacted. I like to help people too. Maybe we can talk about that sometime. But I have been on a "mantle" before. It's not comfortable. I think if you were on one, you would want to get down. I did! But nonetheless, than you so much for always trying to help, even if people get mean about it sometimes. It is appreciated.

-Midori Suarez
Daughter of Mercy

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07 Oct 2016 11:55 #17 by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost)
Replied by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
I shall not argue as I am awaiting a response from the Captain currently and will tend to this matter with him.

I will ask however what if a situation arises where one who can talk with the dead does so and recieves the soul "Permission" but when said soul returns through the phokus has decided that was not what they wished. Or what of situations where no one who can speak with the dead is present? How about if the soul refuses to answer? What if the clergy refuse? These are questions I can keep on asking but the only thing I see this doing is filling the streets with the dead. I am not against burial rites in anyway, I prefer them as they are the respect all the dead normally deserve. I even own Funerary Services in Valdalis. It is the cases where the burial is not an option, burning is great and for some cultures is the proper way, however this takes time. Decomposition is quick and painless and does the same thing years worth of natural degrading does but in seconds. So as long as the body was not desecrated and proper rites performed I have no quarrel against this act. Unless I am reimbursed for the use of my faith in any matter to speak to the dead I will not be doing so, last feast was an oddity for me to be using such druidic power. I will however if the laws of the barony allow for them to be used by anyone, be selling psalms that will allow anyone who is advanced in their literacy to whisper through the black gate to speak with a soul.

Baht A'tal Damien Mograinne
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07 Oct 2016 12:29 - 07 Oct 2016 12:30 #18 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Midori,

To my knowledge, the word "citizen" is not in use in any governmental system on Arawyn, though I will peruse the Baronial Library to make certain. Here, we are subjects of His Majesty, King Aleric Nostrov II, as Travance is a settlement of the broader Kingdom of Kormyre. The laws here were passed down by His Majesty and, on occasion, altered.

Damien,
If you had the soul's permission at the time, that would suffice, regardless of their answer after the fact. If you cannot speak with the dead or if they refuse to answer, both of these will be treated as a lack of permission. The same would apply to those persons who are conscious and able to respond.


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07 Oct 2016 12:58 #19 by Dunn Ironwill (JackDimms)
Replied by Dunn Ironwill (JackDimms) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Midori,

Thank you for your acknowledgement, but oh heavens no! I want nothing to do with the heroic bafoonery that happens around Travance. I am a mere business man and trying to save the world again and again makes for bad business.

Regardless, it seemed at the ritual no one had true control, just doing things to see if they'd work. Gambling with their lives. I was told I was no allowed to help as it would effect those with "tender sensibilities".

Which is a weird sentiment. Everyone knows the lengths Travance has gone to save the world. Bloodtide, making pacts with these people to fight those people, a town that constantly gives into darker urges.

It befuddles me still why I was barred from helping. The one time I actually walked away from business to help. So many on a mad quest for glory and to do things in the light.... To do the "good" thing. One thing I have learned in Travance, grey areas lie in hiding within the vast green forest that surrounds it.

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07 Oct 2016 13:06 #20 by Mantel (sigma-j)
Replied by Mantel (sigma-j) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
And what of bodies without souls to answer for them..? Do those exist? Can they?

--MW

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07 Oct 2016 13:50 #21 by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost)
Replied by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
I am still curious if those in charge will allow for the general public to make use of psalms that will allow a person to whisper through the black gate to be used? Typically one must hold a writ in order to enact its power with no fear of action yet it is one of the only prayers that will allow you to speak with the dead. Will this be taken into consideration? If so may I asked to be informed on the decision that is made?

Baht A'tal Damien Mograinne
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07 Oct 2016 14:05 #22 by Nalick (TheBardAbides)
Replied by Nalick (TheBardAbides) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Damien,

Were any law in the Barony to be altered in any way, all subjects will be made aware of that alteration. Officers and members of the Baronial Guard are tasked with the enforcement of the law, not its authorship or modification.


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07 Oct 2016 17:07 #23 by Tom P (Father Ridigan)
Replied by Tom P (Father Ridigan) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Am I wrong in the assumption that a Visagalian scroll would do the same thing, while still being legal?

-Robert Morgan

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07 Oct 2016 17:27 #24 by LoisMaxwell (LoisMaxwell)
Replied by LoisMaxwell (LoisMaxwell) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
This topic is currently under review by the Baronial Council. There are a great many faiths and cultures in Travance, and they all have different ways of dealing with dead bodies. This is a delicate matter and will not be decided lightly.

As of this moment, the only legal barrier to decomposing/burning/otherwise disposing of a body is whether or not the body itself is needed for an investigation or tracking. In other words, if you come across a body and don't know what happened, let someone figure it out before you return it to the earth.

If you wish to communicate with the spirit before doing so, yes, a Visagalian scroll of that prayer is legal. If you have some special request for your remains, I suggest you follow Mr. Warrane's lead and carry something obvious on you that will let others know your wishes.

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Alt: Sister Liadann McKraegar of Galladel

((OOG: Cassie Stanley, Logistics Deputy, Land System Marshal))
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07 Oct 2016 18:49 - 07 Oct 2016 18:50 #25 by Mantel (sigma-j)
Replied by Mantel (sigma-j) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
I'm afraid I don't know any Visigalian scribes that commit to the study of the aspect of Spirit, nor of Death, nor even any psalmists of any faiths in general. They should come forward and offer up their services, as I am sure that their business will be very good in light of this ethical commitment.

I would also revel at the opportunity to observe their craft being put to use for a good cause such as this.

--MW, WoB

---
(OOG Jean M)

"How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also if I am to be whole." - C.G. Jung
Last edit: 07 Oct 2016 18:50 by Mantel (sigma-j).

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07 Oct 2016 19:33 #26 by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost)
Replied by Piggy Punch (Wyen Nightfrost) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Senechal,
I thank you for your input on the situation as it has helped to deter any unnecessary hostility. I would like to offer my views on the subject at hand if the Barony would like to have them then I will make myself available.

Mantel,
I have previously offered to make psalms that would allow a person advanced in literacy to whisper through the black gate. However, the psalm is that of a Galmachian prayer and is currently therefore illegal to use unless the user has a Writ to practice dark arts.

Baht A'tal Damien Mograinne
Champion of Galmachis

OOG Josh LaBar

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08 Oct 2016 11:56 #27 by Oren Tenderson (Tormy)
Replied by Oren Tenderson (Tormy) on topic Degrading Dead Bodies
Before this goes any further, The top posting had a reason that has been ignored and buried by other agendas, or questions.

In the instances that brought this posting, Threats that would have made it dangerous to wait a few minutes had already been destroyed. The dead had already logged wishes for what to be done with their bodies in the case of their death, which were unknown to the people that decomposed the bodies. The decomposition happened seconds after the threat had been ended, so no one could study them. And the bodies were unable to help anyone understand what had happened to take over the bodies of our fallen.

This was not a decree to make anyone seek out the light or dark or even neutral clergy in the first place, but to find out what is going on before doing this. For respect of the fallen, and the living, and to learn from the situation that lead to the fight so we can stop it from happening sooner rather than later.

It comes to the impatience of people who have ability. This was not to be a decree. This was to be a stern request to take a moment, and think before you make it so more people die, because you made it so a doctor or the guard could not do their job before doing so.

The mention of prayers was to seek out the answers if people knowing the situation and/or wishes of the person are not available. The mention of Galamachis prayers was in the case that one who bares a writ was willing to help. Mantel's idea of having a note on you about your wishes, is rather a good one, and can circumvent many of the issues brought up.

This is not a Witch Hunt, nor a declaration by the Baron. This is the guard trying to be able to do our job, and keep the people safe with as much information as we can.

That being said. This topic is closed. Any further ink used for this, should be privately sent, and if you have any questions they can be sent to myself. I will answer the best I can.

Captain Oren Zero Tenderson of the Royal Baronial Guard of Travance.


OOG- William Bartlett
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The following user(s) said Thank You: JTinney (Swordsaint), Verrill Lebastion (Wellby), Nalick (TheBardAbides), Mantel (sigma-j), Midori Suarez (krykit)

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