normal Trickster Seems Evil

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27 Aug 2019 22:55 #31 by Nalick (NalickDeMarche)
Replied by Nalick (NalickDeMarche) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Except it's not irrelevant because while you all have, time after time, clearly cemented where you stand on the present issue without giving ground to whichever contrary viewpoint, whatever has emerged from the ritual is on the prowl and threatening those you know nothing about. There are greater priorities than philosophical discussions.

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27 Aug 2019 22:56 #32 by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby)
Replied by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I believe you have not served something cruel or empty your life. I truly do. When this entity lured authorities into believing this was the best way to teach a lesson, we can admit it did not have all the facts. It misled our leadership who believed it treated with them in honesty as it did not have all the facts. Hexxer usually means demons, undead and every other bad thing that hurts folk and somehow this ancient entity didn't suspect something could go wrong? I'd hate to think myself wiser then something so ancient and so respected.

Outside its "lawful judgment" this trickster played its "funny jests" on me and Kin- shooting him into a tree and havin the tree try to tie me up; this tells me not how his power is big, but how his thinking is small. I don't go throwing toddlers into trees to make me feel good about myself or make the toddlers revere me. When commoners get transmogrified and displaced around town its usually by things that blow our skin off and throw us into the sun. If it was a jest I am not laughing.

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27 Aug 2019 22:59 - 20 Sep 2019 14:45 #33 by Grashügel (HAZMAT221)
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Meny folk woodnt care bout the intencions of the commen person when they runn amuck why shood i offer such to a hiier powerr





















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27 Aug 2019 23:01 #34 by Keavy (Dani)
Replied by Keavy (Dani) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
As for your feelings Tom, and anyone else who is unclear, should you like a more formal understanding of Trickster by all means message me or meet me the next moon I’m in town. I understand it can be difficult to grasp the concept of the Aspects and what they do in terms of Arawyn but that’s why I am here to help explain. I am more than willing to tell you everything I know so you can have a better understanding of them (especially since there is more than one).

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27 Aug 2019 23:19 - 27 Aug 2019 23:20 #35 by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby)
Replied by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I truly appreciate you takin' the time to explain it more thoroughly and I plan to sit down with you in regards to this matter. I hope to hear more on it, but as it sits it seems straight forward.

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27 Aug 2019 23:53 - 27 Aug 2019 23:59 #36 by O. Nesterin (kuemanner)
Replied by O. Nesterin (kuemanner) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
This arguement of, "if you stand idly by while someone is doing something dangerous, you are also guilty for letting it happen" also should have every God and higher being as being held guilty. So let's strip all of them of their power. The dragons, the fae, the ordrum, the gods, etc. They all had the capability of stopping what happened but didn't. As khala being a disciple of Malyc, his presence was there, he did not stop it, so strip him of his. Strip Nuremerelias of their power for not stopping Necrophitus.

The trickster, like the gods, have presence everywhere but simply manifested here in physical form for a short time. If beings of power were to be held responsible for our stupidity every time they don't intervene, they would not exist.

Stop condemning a neutral being for not intervening sooner in the affairs of stupid mortals.

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28 Aug 2019 00:21 #37 by Ninnyhammer (Anna Collins)
Replied by Ninnyhammer (Anna Collins) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
The Trickster can not be "evil", can not be innately diabolical, but he can still act poorly and deserve recompense.

The Trickster ought to have interceded. As Seth asserted, to act as a willful bystander to something you suspect to hurt others is immoral. No, we as men, wielding nothing but the lowly laws of men cannot hold all higher beings accountable for their inaction. But if a "being of power" terrorizes man, and they are within our grasp, we are compulsed by our duty to each other to try. Or at least be more judicious with who we take counsel from.

Nalick(s),
According to Lady Darkwood, the creature is not "on the prowl" but currently dormant.

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28 Aug 2019 00:26 #38 by Nalick (NalickDeMarche)
Replied by Nalick (NalickDeMarche) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I stand humbled and grateful, both for the correction and that what emerged from the ritual is not, at the moment, a danger to those we serve.

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28 Aug 2019 00:34 - 28 Aug 2019 00:37 #39 by Caelvan (Caelvan)
Replied by Caelvan (Caelvan) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
But the Trickster did intercede. When it got out of control they stepped in to try to stop it.

George said in a posting above: "In the end even the Trickster wasn't able to put a stop to the ritual once it started."

They tried to stop it and couldn't. How should they have interceded in a ritual that was never done before and they didn't know the outcome?

People are trying to accuse them of knowing the outcome and letting it happen anyway, in all my experience with the Trickster, they have never shown an ability to see the future.

I ask any who are advocating for stripping power from the Trickster, or blaming him in anyway:
-If you didn't know the outcome of this ritual beforehand.
-It was something that was never performed before.
What would you have done? There was no evidence that something this catastrophic would have happened.

We as Travance, have done dangerous rituals never before done in the past, many of which could have/should have killed everyone, or ended the world, We didn't speak up then when we didn't know the result. Why does the Trickster(who does not know the future) deserve more scrutiny than we do?

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28 Aug 2019 00:37 #40 by Cobus Puren (Jason T.)
Replied by Cobus Puren (Jason T.) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
...um. Can we go back to the 'we did rituals that could have ended the world' bit, real quick?

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28 Aug 2019 00:39 #41 by Caelvan (Caelvan)
Replied by Caelvan (Caelvan) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Cobus,
I don't remember the details of them as this was many years ago, probably close to a decade, as well as some that I heard about that happened before my time in Travance. All I remember is the warnings that we had right before we started it.

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28 Aug 2019 00:46 #42 by Cobus Puren (Jason T.)
Replied by Cobus Puren (Jason T.) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Alright cheers, just making sure I'd read that right and not in fact gone mad.

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28 Aug 2019 00:54 #43 by O. Nesterin (kuemanner)
Replied by O. Nesterin (kuemanner) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I mean, iagree with you somewhat in your statement, Ninnyhammer, about "But if a "being of power" terrorizes man, and they are within our grasp, we are compulsed by our duty to each other to try. Or at least be more judicious with who we take counsel from." But all beings make mistakes, a lot of people here are condemning the trickster for not acting soon enough. Yes, I agree he did not, but if we condemned beings whose very nature is the power people want to strip, you would likely be condemning them to death.

The trickster tried to intervene, but could not stop the ritual. The trickster has tasked the person responsible with a geass. The trickster is working to rectify the mistake that occurred and everyone just wants them
made lame or even dead by taking away the very fiber of its existence. That, is not right.

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28 Aug 2019 02:41 #44 by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby)
Replied by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Well any of the true Gods don't tend to advise us to "teach people a lesson" then let their lesson get this out of hand.

As far as I can see it, this "piece" of Arawyn seems on par or beneath Chaz when it comes to foresight and wisdom so I can say I'd personally feel more comfortable if this fallibility were acknowledged, so we know that our authorities on the matter are not looking to him when they are making decisions that can hurt the people they are sworn to shepard.

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28 Aug 2019 04:12 #45 by O. Nesterin (kuemanner)
Replied by O. Nesterin (kuemanner) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that a mistake was made. I don't think this should have been done in the first place. The point I'm arguing is that all creatures, no matter how powerful, make mistakes. That doesn't mean we should resign them to death or stripping them of their power, which in this instance is entwined with the very essence of who they are. The trickster made a huge error, but is working to rectify the situation, along with the one responsible, and many others. The trickster has done a great amount of good to help the creatures of Arawyn and in this instance of curiosity, let it get the better of them.

And, just like clerics and priests to their gods, we druids look to the aspects for advice and guidance but can see when guidance is flawed.

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28 Aug 2019 06:32 - 28 Aug 2019 08:20 #46 by Ilana Darkwood (Ilana_Darkwood)
Replied by Ilana Darkwood (Ilana_Darkwood) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
The Captain had requested I wait a few days before posting the full account of what occurred and the research done immediately afterwards so everyone had a chace to settle but I see that is not what is going to happen. I also see where Sam vanished off to last night.

SamGeorge covered a good portion, but I can give a full account of being near the ritual, defined better than I can with spoken word. I stammer in large groups so I may easily miss finer details with speech trying to organize my thoughts when I feel short on time.

Also, I am not sure, but I believe it was noted somewhere in here I worship Trickster and act as their word is Valos'? I haven't read all this right now, it was mentioned to me.

I do not worship Trickster, nor would I take their or Valos' word as infallible. Similar to how I do not worship Galladel despite being considered a priest or having a title as one of his champions fighting Necrophitus. No man or higher power is completely immune to the lies of others or themselves and I have always seen that in my long time here. I apologize if it came across that way, I have always concerned myself with the people, which is why I spent the majority of the feast wondering how to express that (I had a lovely conversation with an Inquisitor about it.)

I wrote my account Sunday and have been holding it, but please let me know privately if I should post it to a new thread of paper or not and if I should no longer wait.

For now, everyone, please try and take the morning to breathe and help with repairs or checking in on what we need to do to protect the people from this contract our souls are bound to. We currently have foreign guests and we will be getting more in the coming weeks. We are a team right now, and truly have to work on organizing ourselves overall. I will be back later today after I do my rounds.

Thank you for your time.

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28 Aug 2019 08:16 - 20 Sep 2019 14:49 #47 by Grashügel (HAZMAT221)
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Mmmmmhmmmm same tude dat made this god mess same tude bein used to fix it good neybors gett hurt when godbotherin folk say they havin all the ansers an scuses.
















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28 Aug 2019 11:05 #48 by Jenn Cutter (Jenn)
Replied by Jenn Cutter (Jenn) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Just two things to mention, as I don't wish to be overly involved in this argument.

Firstly, Order does not mean Good. Just because Trickster is a being of Order that does not make them incapable of being Evil. I'm not saying that they are evil; just that we shouldn't be disregarding what others are saying based on this idea that one cannot be related to both order and evil.

Secondly, I think too many are brushing over the fact that Tom is stating that he and Kin were assaulted by Trickster. Regardless of your feelings towards the other actions Trickster did this feast, Tom deserves to be heard about this.

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28 Aug 2019 11:50 - 28 Aug 2019 11:51 #49 by Seth (Kurteth)
Replied by Seth (Kurteth) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I'm a fool for coming back here, because what I am about to write I am sure will cause someone to be upset and possibly call for my execution.


Yes, Nesterin I want exactly that. Every being you named, every flawed being of power that misuses their influence. Yes I would like them stripped and removed from their throne above mortals.

Valos, the god of Justice, allows injustice at every turn. He had to basically be forced by us to deal with Necrophitus, and then didn't even enact justice, just removed him from his ally and pushed him away. This is not a benevolent god. He, through his actions, clearly only cares about his own, and when he deems his followers are "good enough" to receive power. He, and all the gods, had the power to kill Necrophitus right there, and instead let him flee. Or, if they didn't, decided to not pursue him and instead leave it to mortals because they cannot be bothered to try.

If the god of justice allows injustice to "teach us a lesson", especially when he has the power to stop all injustice with the flick of a finger, then he is a flawed or evil god and deserves to be removed from power, or killed.


Now obviously, this is not entirely possible with every creature you named. Not right now anyway. And, I am sure there there are plenty of you who have already begun disregarding me for daring to upset your precious gods who sit and do nothing but allow suffering.

In the Trickster's case, I am calling for punishment. A lesson to be taught the great "god" of lesson teaching.

He knew it would end bad, and didn't stop it, in order to teach a lesson. He put Arawyn, and mortals in danger, deliberately. If Khala can get a Geass from Arawyn and outlawed from us, then Trickster can get a punishment from us too.

"Stop condemning a neutral being for not intervening sooner in the affairs of stupid mortals"

Then stop allowing then to have power over us.

Seth





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28 Aug 2019 12:31 - 28 Aug 2019 12:39 #50 by Ephrem (bamore62)
Replied by Ephrem (bamore62) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
While my knowledge of druidics and such is fairly limited to that of a lay person in the area, theological questions are certainly within the realm of my expertise.

Valos, as god of justice, brings the aspect of justice into Arawyn from his godly existence in Eodra. As god of justice, his followers in Eodra, most pointedly his priests, clerics, and those devoted to him, through their relationship with the god are tasked to bring about justice in Arawyn. Valos cannot just create justice in Arawyn by simply bashing out injustice in the heart of each sentient creature. The only way that could happen is if Valos destroys the free will of each individual and they are but mere puppets acting without choice. Does this sound familiar? Five years within a world in which free will was stripped in order to bring about "perfection" proved that this was not a reasonable option.

So, therefore, our existence allows the choice between justice and injustice. For without the choice for injustice, we could not be just. Without the option for evil, we could not be good. Without the possibility of turning toward darkness, we could not embrace the light. Without free will we would be but mere automatons that cannot bring about justice, goodness, light, or love in the world.

So, no, Valos does not allow injustice to teach us a lesson. Valos allows injustice so that we may freely choose justice, because justice not freely chosen is no true justice.

As far as his followers being good enough to receive his power, that is another topic altogether and contains much potential for discussion.

I hope this clarifies some questions presented on these boards.

As to Trickster, I have less knowledge on what this being is and what they are up to.

Yours in the Light,

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28 Aug 2019 12:36 #51 by Annora (Karen)
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Trickster was the one that laid the geas upon Khala, not Arawyn the greater entity.




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28 Aug 2019 12:38 #52 by Donald MacFhionnlaigh (raidr0933)
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Kin, Tom,

are you certain you were attacked by Trickster, or was it this Demon git? Can you describe what attacked you? you may have run into the demon.

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28 Aug 2019 13:30 #53 by Seth (Kurteth)
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I'll say again.

If a being has power to stop evil, and does not, they are just as bad as the perpetrator.

I do not want Valos to have complete perfect control.

I want no control.

I want mortals to govern themselves. Flawed and imperfect that we are. Without the influence or expectations of higher beings. I want us to hold eachother to higher standards that we ourselves enact through our own will.

This is off topic.

If you want to debate, Father, you can find me.

Seth





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28 Aug 2019 13:30 #54 by Keavy (Dani)
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Tom, whether the Trickster physically harmed you or not with his actions to you and Kin, I will apologize on their behalf. Trickster has done these things to people before, all in jest as is their nature. Most people see the gesture as a joke, but I can understand some who might not appreciate it. Again, they do not do these things to harm people intentionally. I can commune with Trickster myself to make sure they understand not to do such things again.

As for everyone else, comparing the Aspects to Gods is a frivolous venture of wasted breath. They exist in the primal plane which melds with our own prime material plane. Just like everything else, animals, plants, etc, we are on equal ground. Yes, I have chosen to champion for them as they do carry a power and authority over certain things within the primal plane and are called upon by Arawyn, just as any one of us have certain roles to fulfill in our daily lives, but I only do so to help maintain the balance of nature.

Yes, Selby, Order does not mean good. However, again, I will stand firm that Trickster is not a being with dark intentions and only does what is within their nature and of the benefit of Arawyn.

Seth, your views are wholly flawed thinking you can possibly get rid of power of all supernatural beings. They exist in the very fibers of our world and you are a fool to think that we could get rid of them.

In Loyalty to Arawyn,
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28 Aug 2019 13:44 #55 by Tyros (Tyros)
Replied by Tyros (Tyros) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Seth, that is some dangerous thinking you have there. While I don't care for or worship any being, I understand that they have a purpose in this world and that none of them are infallible. Some of the Gods ascended from Mortals, so to wish to strip every being you don't understand of it's power is a line that no one should cross. At the end of the day, where does that leave us? If you were the strongest being that ever existed would you recognize that and end your own life? Where would you even go? There is no afterlife anymore, you killed the beings that watch over that and give it form.

Every single creature in existence is fallible and susceptible to something. We see that every time we as a town interfere with their plans. Constantly trying to control these things without the knowledge of their purpose is incredibly prideful, who are you to place judgement on the Sun because you were stuck in the shade?

Should insects judge you if you stepped on them? You are stronger, you should know better. Doesn't matter if you were distracted, what about their interests?

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28 Aug 2019 13:45 #56 by Caelvan (Caelvan)
Replied by Caelvan (Caelvan) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I still have the question:

How do you know the Trickster knew how the ritual would end?

Or are you just assuming based on a phrase they say every time they observe something?
There is a lesson in all things we do, in that statement, the Trickster was right.

If you have proof of Trickster knowing exactly how it ended before it did, share this.

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28 Aug 2019 13:49 #57 by Tim P (OrganicGolem)
Replied by Tim P (OrganicGolem) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
I want to weigh in on the concept of sitting by or watching from the sidelines. When you make a change in your own body towards one of inner planes or that of Arawyn, you make yourself an anathema to it's opposite. The same, I think obviously, holds true for beings who solely embody such planes such as Primal Spirits. Now I don't mean simply practicing the craft, as is evidenced by the fact that one can even be both a Hexer or Shaman and a Druid or Healer, but when your actual physiology changes as the result of an advanced link to those power sources.

For instance (from my own accounts): At one time VERY early into my practicing into of black sorcery I subtly was involved in a ritual that a white sorcerer was casting, and found myself negatively influencing it by my very presence. This was my first, but only account noticing this from a ritualistic standpoint. That being said, I have learned since then how to shield my nature from negatively impacting order-based rituals since then... to a point. If I think the benefit I can influence on a order based ritual outweighs any harm that may come of it, I usually still involve myself. However if I was close enough to watch a ritual in person, I would be impacting that ritual even if I was not directly involved. It is usually for that reason I either help directly, or stay far away from order and light based ritual.

Implying that a being like the Trickster, or even George can simply watch a ritual involving order and not be involved is not (in my opinion) not entirely correct. I have to imagine, based on my own experiences, that both probably at least had some wards or shields in place to protect themselves from the ritual or the ritual from themselves, but at the end of the day you can never be sure the impact you will have when it comes to this level of pioneering magic.

Anyone who thinks they understand what effect mixing chaos with any other source after its integration into the weave will have is deluding themselves. Nobody actually understands this, yet. Particularly since we're all operating on knowledge that (for all we know) is a lie from the False Prophet. If however you believe in your convictions that the Trickster or anyone involved knew what was going to happen as a result of this ritual, then by the convictions of my own faith I will absolutely not stand in your way.

On the other hand, think of it this way: Icarus and Eden both knew what they were doing. Either in the case of Icarus not being able to control herself, and Eden being unwilling to back down they continued to bring harm to others. The choice made for Eden is less black and white, but I think you can agree that Icarus did not actually want to harm anyone. Maybe think about judging people based on intent, rather than action. Gods, Anastazi, or Primal Beings have some motivation for their actions. Even still, not everything always goes the way its intended.



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28 Aug 2019 13:53 #58 by Ninnyhammer (Anna Collins)
Replied by Ninnyhammer (Anna Collins) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Keavy, Harassment intended as a joke is still harassment. Mr Bell and Mr KcKraeger were terrorized and endangered. And it would have taken no great amount of wisdom for the Trickster to realize what he was doing.

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28 Aug 2019 14:04 #59 by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby)
Replied by Verrill Lebastion (Wellby) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Man There's Alot To Go Over Here (imma need to pay this friar who's transcribin' extra),

In Regards to Valos,
I feel The Father already said it better then I, but feel I'd add there's Gods in this world that work "in opposition" (that means against) Valos. We met that guy once- heard he shoots lightning and growls alot. That lightning fella' and "Necrofetus" (Transcribers Note: I cannot tell if Mr. Bell is intentionally mispronouncing this) have been workin to undercut the Lord of Lights work since the beginning. Enax has done far worse far as I can measure it, waging war on Valos' people in the name of tyranny (meanin bad authority) an' wanton cruelty. Far as I see it the three are a spectrum of how people with power choose to treat others- and each soul put on this earth is given the choice of which Lord their actions will help. We gotta do better for our neighbors and for those who look up to us for Valos to win that fight and that aint a war to be won with swords an' grit alone. It's gonna take patience, kindness, and mercy. Way I see it if we all do that we can make a world where justice is real, where every soul born on Arawyn get a fair shake, and those on top look out for those on bottom. Ok whats the next point here.

Lady Darkwood,
I am humbled yall came here to share your thoughts and appreciate yer insights. I admit I don't ken greater entities the way you do or dabble in their works. I admit I find Godbotherin' detrimental to long term solutions and the Trickster gave me an answer on "what creates blight" that didn't fit what others said. I guess that's a lesson on me for askin a fella called the trickster for a straight answer. That all aside I pray I've caused y'all no undue stress while this matter gets sorted. Also Im happy to give yall a discounted quote and this Deceiver critter.

Donny,

Yeah I'm sure it was him as the ritual had not happened yet. Just to be clear he didn't blow our skin off or anythin', feel as though he was just tryna spook us.

Lady Kennyr'renaith,
Your apology means a great deal to me and your continued patience explainin' such things goes a long way. Only bit that strikes me strange is this Trickster seemed capable of speakin' the common tongue so I'm not sure what's got him needin' you to do his apologizin' for him-- tho again, I appreciate y'all are tryna help and smooth this over. That bein said, Miss Hammer (Transcriber's note: I don't know how to correct him on this) summarizes my thoughts on it pretty well.

Thanks Y'all for takin' this seriously and comin' to the board for a discussion.
Your Neighbor,
Transcribed and not Read,
Tom Bell,
Ratcatcher

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28 Aug 2019 14:09 #60 by Keavy (Dani)
Replied by Keavy (Dani) on topic Trickster Seems Evil
Ninnyhammer,

Did I disagree? Did I not apologize on his behalf? I said I would make sure to speak with them to ensure it doesn’t happen again. However, how many times have we thrown spells and tricks at our friends in jest? Ones that can potentially harm them? Suddenly when it’s a good natured being of different origin doing the same gestures it’s not a joke anymore? I myself have done worse to my own comrades and no one sought to arrest me or strip me of my power. You’re all beginning to take this too far.

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